支付宝事件梗概A Synopsis of the Alipay Case

由于整个发牌过程充满了不明确、暧昧、揣摩，甚至还有流言与暗算，支付牌照给本来各有算计的阿里董事会成员带来了不同的、随时在变化的风险与机会

As the entire license distribution process has been full of uncertainty, rumour and plot, licensing in the third-party payments industry has brought a set of constantly changing risks and opportunities to the Ali board of directors, each of whom had their own ideas.

文/本刊记者 王长胜

简单地说，一条线索是最近五年来一直盘旋在中国第三方支付企业头上的牌照悬念，

一条线索是阿里巴巴四人董事会里的利益博弈。支付业形势的发展、中国对外资态度的变化、雅虎与阿里这几年的彼落此兴、阿里管理团队诉求的转移……这些因素皆在左右这两条线索的拧合、及走向。The Alipay saga can essentially be broken down into two threads. One is the suspense of the licensing legislation that has been hovering over China’s third-party payments industry for the last five years, and the other is the struggle between the members of Alibaba’s 4-man board of directors. On the periphery of these two threads, pinching and pulling at them, are elements including the development of the payment industry environment, fluctuations in China’s feeling towards foreign investment, the ups and downs of the relationship between Alibaba and Yahoo over the past few years, and shifts in the demands of Alibaba’s management team.

最终的结果：阿里巴巴管理团队以为了夺取中国央行颁发的第三方支付牌照之名，单方面剪断支付宝与母公司阿里巴巴集团的脐带。

The result? In order to get a third-party payments license from the Bank of China (BoC), Alibaba’s management team unilaterally cut off Alipay’s umbilical cord to its parent company, the Alibaba Group.

先 来看第一条线索。出于对自身外资身份敏感性(雅虎与软银在阿里集团各占39%与29.3%股份)的考虑，2009年7月24日，阿里巴巴董事会以纪要形式 授权管理层通过股权结构调整来合法获取支付牌照。此前的6月1日，开曼群岛注册的阿里巴巴的全资子公司alipay已将70%股权转让给马云和谢世煌全资 拥有的浙江阿里巴巴电子商务有限公司（简称浙江阿里巴巴），alipay与浙江阿里巴巴保持“协议控制”(即VIE)关系。

Let’s look at the first thread. Due to its sensitivity towards its own identity as a foreign-invested company (foreign enterprises Yahoo and Softbank own 39% and 29.3% shares in Ali Group respectively), on July 24 2009 Alibaba’s board of directors, through the minutes of a meeting, authorised their management level to legally obtain a payments license through a re-arrangement of their stock rights structure. On the 1st of the previous month, Alibaba’s wholly-owned Cayman Islands-registered subsidiary Alipay transferred 70% of shares to Jack Ma and Xie Shihuang’s Zhejiang Alibaba E-Commerce Limited (shortened to Zhejiang Alibaba), and Alipay and Zhejiang Alibaba maintained a

“variable interest entity” (VIE) relationship.

2010 年6月21日，央行起草了5年的《非金融机构支付服务管理办法》（又称“2号令”）出台。其中规定：公司若有外资成分，须报国务院另批；2011年9月1 日前，未拿到支付牌照的公司将不再允许办理支付业务。2010年8月6日，alipay将支付宝其余的30%股权转让给浙江阿里巴巴。

On June 21 2010, after five years of drafting, the BoC released its “Measures for Managing Non-Financial Organization Payment Services” (also known as “Order 2”) in which it was ruled that if a company had foreign investment, it must receive official permission from the State Council. On September 1, any company without a payments license would no longer be permitted to carry out payment services.

On August 6, Alipay transferred the remaining 30% of Alipay shares to Zhejiang Alibaba.

对 于这两次转让，孙正义和杨致远“都同意了”（马云说）。毕竟，行业通行的协议控制的方式依然能够保证外资股东的权益。但是，2011年1月26日，央行发 传真函件要求支付宝声明是否有协议控制，是事态改变的转折点。阿里巴巴方面始终没有向《中国企业家》出示该函件，不过根据本刊记者采访，几位支付企业负责 人均证实他们也收到过该函件，确有其事。

According to Jack Ma, board members Sun Zhengyi and Yang Zhiyuan “both agreed” with these two transfers. At the end of the day, common practice in the industry is that a VIE can guarantee the rights and benefits of foreign shareholders. But on January 26 2011 when the BoC sent a fax requiring Alipay to declare whether or not it had a VIE, the situation changed. Alibaba has never shown China Entrepreneur Magazine the correspondence, but according to interviews carried out by this magazine, others in the payments industry confirmed that they had received similar correspondence, and that such an event had happened.

阿里巴巴方面称，根据这份传真函件，以及后来的口头沟通，他们了解到：支付宝若要不走国务院审批而顺利地第一批拿到牌照，就需要切断协议控制，并盖章声明。

Alibaba maintains that according to the fax and subsequent verbal communication, it became clear that if it was to avoid examination by the State Council and receive one of the first payments licenses, they would need to terminate their VIE, and stamp an official declaration.

可以分析，摆在董事会面前有三条路：一、维持协议控制，报国务院另外批准；二、维持协议控制，但声明无协议控制；三、终止协议控制，商谈补偿办法。

Three paths lay ahead of the board of directors. One, maintain the VIE, and be subject to the State Council’s approval; two, maintain the VIE, but state that there was no such agreement; three, terminate the VIE, and discuss compensation with its shareholders.

据马云说，软银的孙正义要求走第二条。“你马云有办法的，我在中国投资了那么多公司都可以（协议控制），凭什么你不可以？”

According to Jack Ma, Softbank’s Sun Zhengyi wanted to take the second route. “You’re a capable guy, Jack. I’ve had VIEs with all the companies in China that I’ve invested in, why can’t I have one with you?”

杨致远“两边倒”。马云拿起桌上的笔和烟对本刊记者比划，“反对(马云终止协议控制的提议)吧，他觉得公司如果(拿不到牌照)垮了那他得承担责任；同意吧，他回去(向雅虎)交代不了，所以他干脆不表态。”

Yang Zhiyuan was sitting on the fence. Ma picks up the pen and cigarette on the desk, and gestures at me: “If he opposed [Ma’s proposal to terminate the VIE], he thought he would be responsible if the company [couldn’t get a license and] failed; if he agreed, he would go back to Yahoo empty handed, so he may as well stay quiet.”

“我跟他们讲得很透，事情是这个样子、那个样子，兄弟们，没办法了。”马云坚持走第三条路。决议无果后，马云按照自己的意愿做出了决定：解除协议控制，并通知两位股东后续商量补偿事宜。

“I told them very clearly: ‘Guys, this is how it is. We’re out of luck.’” Ma insisted on taking the third path. After fruitless negotiations, Ma made a decision based on his own wishes: to get rid of the VIE, and to inform the other two shareholders that they would be entering into compensation talks.

阿里巴巴董事会是一个四人董事会：杨致远、孙正义、马云、蔡崇信(阿里巴巴CFO)。用清华大学研究公司治理的教授宁向东的话说，“从理论上讲，这个由四个人组成的董事会，本身设置就很怪异，因为容易形成投票僵局。”

The Alibaba board of directors is made up of four people: Yang Zhiyuan, Sun Zhengyi, Jack Ma and Cai Chongxin (Alibaba’s CFO). To quote Professor Ning Xiangdong of Tsinghua University’s research company, “In theory, to have a four-man board of directors is a very strange setup, because it can very easily come to a deadlock.”

这 个“僵局”始自2005年8月，雅虎以10亿美元及雅虎中国资产换购阿里集团40%股权。当时的约定是，雅虎只能有35%投票权，而马云等管理团队虽只占 有31.7%股份，但投票权加5%，“还有一个约定就是不能随便解雇马云。”中泽嘉盟投资有限公司董事长吴鹰说。于是，阿里团队有马云和蔡崇信两人进入董 事会。但当时定好，2010年10月后，雅虎投票权将增至与持股权相当，可增加一个董事会席位。如果该约定成真，阿里董事会面临新的平衡。

This “deadlock” began in August 2005, when Yahoo exchanged one billion US dollars and Yahoo China’s assets for 40% of shares in Alibaba Group. The agreement at the time was that Yahoo would only have a 35% voting right, and although Jack Ma’s management team held a 31.7% share, they had an extra 5% voting right.

“Also, there was a stipulation that Ma could not be fired whenever they felt like it,” said Zhongze Jiameng Investments Limited chairman Wu Ying. So, Jack Ma and Cai Chongxin joined Ali Group’s board of directors. However, it was set down that after October 2010, Yahoo’s voting rights would increase to be in proportion with their share

holding, and a chairman of the board could be added. If this agreement had come to fruition, Ali Group’s board would be facing a new balance of power.在采访中，马云没有否认他与股东之间的关系这两年来是有“难处”。这“难处”包括雅

虎理论上在董事会话语权的增加，包括现实中雅虎CEO巴茨(2009年初上任)对中国事务不了解而态度生硬，还包括与孙正义在员工激励等问题上的沟通不畅(详见后文《马云访谈实录》)。

In the interview, Ma didn’t deny that over the past two years, his relationship with the shareholders had seen “difficulties”. These “difficulties” included the theoretical increase in Yahoo’s voting rights on the board of directors, as well as a lack of understanding of and stiff attitude towards China on the part Yahoo’s CEO Carol Bartz (who took over in 2009), and Sun Zhengyi’s poor communication on worker incentives (see the following article).

先 说孙正义。孙是韩裔日本人，他在1980年创立的软银公司，看似是一家到处投资的VC，实际上，却是有着产业家般雄心的科技公司。他最近明确表态，软银希 望用30年时间成为市值排名全球前十位的科技企业。他说：“目前，我们在世界各地拥有大约800家科技公司，希望在30年内将这一数字提高到5000家， 大部分将位于亚洲。”

First, Sun Zhengyi. Sun, a Korean of Japanese descent, established Softbank in 1980. While it may seem like an investment-happy VC, it’s actually a bold technology company with an industrialist heart. Sun recently stated his hope that within 30 years, Softbank could become one of the top ten market-valued tech companies in the world: “Right now, we have about 800 tech companies worldwide, and I hope that within 30 years we can take this up to five thousand, with the majority of those in Asia.”

在 日本，软银拥有最受欢迎的門户网站、搜索引擎和电子商务网站，同时还经营着日本增长最快的移动运营商和最大的宽带网络。但是，软银最广阔的探险却发生在中 国，自2000年投资阿里巴巴开始，软银对中国的众多著名的互联网企业进行了战略投资，涵盖了电子商务、SNS、视频、移动互联网等多个颇具前途的领域。

In Japan, Softbank has a very popular web portal, search engine and e-commerce website, as well as Japan’s fastest growing mobile operator and its largest broadband network. However, the company’s biggest explorations have actually happened in China. Since its investment in Alibaba in 2000, Softbank has carried out strategic investment in many well-known Chinese internet businesses, covering e-commerce, social networking sites, video, mobile internet and several other promising areas.

“传统的投资者拿的是别人的钱，而软银却是孙正义自己的钱。这使得孙正义在投资时往往是出手阔绰，价格很有竞争力。但是，拿到他的钱，若想甩掉却没有那么容易，他看重的不是一次性回报，而是他的战略布局。”中国圈内某个不愿具名的创业者对《中国企业家》如是说。

“Traditional investors use other people’s money, but Softbank uses Sun Zhengyi’s own. This makes him very bold in his investments, and very competitive on price. But once you’ve got his money, if you want out, it’s not that easy. What he cares about isn’t one-time payoffs, but his overall strategic arrangement,” said an anonymous Chinese industry

insider to CEM.

这一点，从软银投资阿里巴巴一事中可见一斑。2000年10月，孙正义投资给当时名不见经传的阿里巴巴2000万美金，2004年2月又追加6000万美金，之后从未套现退出一分钱，至今保持了阿里巴巴29.3％的股份。

This is obviously one small item on the grand scale of Softbank’s investment in Alibaba. In October 2000, Sun invested 20 million US dollars in the then-unknown Alibaba, and another 60 million dollars in February 2004. To this day, Sun has never pulled out one cent, holding 29.3% of shares in Alibaba today.

马 云不掩饰他对孙正义投资了得的钦佩，但马云一贯“客户第一、员工第二、股东第三”的逻辑并不打算为孙正义拐弯。他直陈他与孙正义在董事会层面对阿里事务有 分歧。“我可以很负责任讲，如果阿里团队听了30%以上的孙正义在产业、运营方面的发言，这个公司早死了。很多建议是愚蠢。会投资的人不会做企业。”孙、 马的一个核心矛盾是团队激励问题。马云指责孙正义是“铁公鸡天下第一”。

Ma doesn’t hide his great respect for Sun’s investment, but he certainly did not plan to have his unwavering “Customer first, worker second, shareholders third” logic derailed by Sun Zhengyi. He lays out flat that he and Sun had a difference of opinion at board level. “I can reliably say that if Ali Group had listened to more than 30% of Sun’s advice on business and operation, this company would have died a long time ago. A lot of his advice was stupid. Investors can’t be entrepreneurs.” Sun and Ma’s core conflict was on how to encourage the team. Ma has called Sun “the world’s biggest cheapskate”.

再 来看雅虎。众所周知，对没落的雅虎而言，中国的阿里巴巴成了雅虎最重要的资产之一，一度支撑着雅虎的股价。在此情况下，马云曾多次提出回购股份都被拒绝， 比如《福布斯》曾披露马云曾欲以35亿美元向雅虎回购15%股权遭拒。有局外人如360奇虎董事长周鸿祎(前雅虎中国CEO)支招：“今天雅虎拥有的阿里 的股份的价值可能就超过他自己全部的价值”，与其回购股份，不如直接收购雅虎股份，变成它的大股东。据马云说，

他不是没有这样的机会，“所有想收购雅虎的 公司，哪个没有找过我呀？”但他显然顾忌良多，没有出手。马云在访谈中把这归于“良心”，恐怕不是事实。其间有诸多微妙复杂的因素，其中一个便是：与马云 在阿里事务上多有分歧的软银，是雅虎与阿里的双重大股东。

As for Yahoo, it’s common knowledge that China’s Alibaba has become one of the sinking company’s most important assets, at one time propping up Yahoo’s share price. In this situation, Ma’s numerous propositions to buy back shares were all rejected. Forbes once revealed that when Ma attempt to buy back 15% of shares in Yahoo with 3,500,000,000 US dollars, he met withrefusal. Outsider Zhou Hongyi, Yahoo’s former China CEO and chairman of the board at China’s biggest provider of free anti-virus software 360 Qihoo said: “The shares Yahoo has in Alibaba are perhaps worth more than all of its own shares.” Buying back shares wasn’t as worthwhile as directly buying shares in Yahoo, and becoming a large shareholder.

According to Ma, it wasn’t that he hadn’t had the chance: “Any company that wanted to buy Yahoo had all approached me at one time or another.” But he let the opportunity pass by. In the interview, Ma puts this down to “kindness”, but this may not be the case. There

are many subtle, complex factors, one of which is the fact that Softbank, which had so many differences of opinion with Ma on the subject of Alibaba, is a large shareholder in Ali and Yahoo.

无论如何，今年3月份时，马云曾在接受《中国企业家》采访时说，“如果有机会能改变(股份结构)，我不改变那是我愚蠢。对吧？”

Whichever way you look at it, in March of this year MY in an interview with CEM, Ma said “If I could change [the shareholding structure], I’d be an idiot not to, right?”

客观上，支付宝要以纯内资身份拿“牌照”，是改变上述格局的一个契机。

Objectively, Alipay obtaining a license purely on its own money is a golden opportunity to change that structure.

马云自然对此不承认。他把支付宝比喻为淘宝的“肝脏”，他的意思是，现在迫于牌照政策把“肝脏”拿出来，让它变成独立的“人”，这是多大的风险!但该行为对马云团队显而易见的好处是，当手握阿里系最宝贵的资产，马云团队加大了下一步与雅虎和软银股权博弈的筹码。

Naturally, Ma won’t admit to this. He likens Alipay to Taobao’s “liver”, saying that to pull it out in order to get a license and make it into an independent “person” is a very risky thing to do! But the obvious benefit of this action to Ma’s team is that in taking hold a precious part of Ali’s assets, Ma’s team has bulked up its bargaining chips in the next round of negotiation with Yahoo and Softbank.

牌 照：支付宝的門槛？马云们的机会？由于整个发牌过程——支付企业与央行的沟通，充满了不明确、暧昧、揣摩，甚至还有流言与暗算，支付牌照给阿里董事会成员 带来不同的、随时在变化的风险与机会，扑朔迷离。在牌照政策无法提前确切预知的情况下，

夺牌游戏中的每个玩家随时都在相机行事。

The license. Is it Alipay’s stumbling block? Or perhaps an opportunity for Ma and his team? Because the entire licensing process and communication between Alipay and the BoC has been full of uncertainty, rumours and plotting, payment licensing has brought many different, constantly changing risks and opportunities to the Ali board of directors. In a situation where it’s impossible to know clearly in advance about licensing policy, every player in the game has to be flexible.

最后，在政策规定与实际操作的种种罅隙间，马云做出了他自称“不完美但惟一正确的”决定。In the cracks between regulations and real-life operation, Ma made an “imperfect, but the only correct” decision.

Part 2马云接受《中国企业家》专访实录CEM’s Interview with Jack Ma

这可以看作阿里巴巴创始人在支付宝争议事件上，留给未来的一份“证词”The testimony of Alibaba’s founder on the debate over Alipay, left for posterity

采访/本刊记者 李岷 王长胜谈央行的政策空间Talking about

《中国企业家》：根据你刚才在记者会上披露的，你与软银、雅虎关于支付宝的协商起码从2009年(第一次转让股权)就开始了，事态的转折点是在今年第一季度发生的吗？

CEM: According to what you just said at the press conference, your dealings with Softbank and Yahoo began in 2009 [the first transfer of shares]. Did the turning point come in the first quarter of this year?

马云：其实呢，从第一天做支付宝我就预测到国家要管理。我也不想标榜我们的份额，

不想标榜国家安全，但是(支付)这一块在全世界任何一个国家政府都 不可能 放过。这些事情我必须跟股东讲得很清楚：今天我们如果是小屁公司没关系的，但大了，我们不可能绕过去。但人家(股东)不相信，或者人家说：那再说。他不同 意，你就傻在那。

MY: Actually, from the first day I started Alipay, I predicted that the government would [eventually] control it. I don’t mean to boast about our proportions, or about the country’s security, but the [payment] industry is something that no government in the world would let pass by. I have to let the shareholders know these things clearly: if we were a tiny company right now, it wouldn’t matter, but we’re a big one, so we can’t dodge these things. But [the shareholders] don’t believe me, or they say “we’ll talk about it another time”. If they don’t agree with something, you’re stuck.

《中国企业家》：央行可能让市场份额占50%的这样一家公司拿不到第一批牌照吗？

CEM: Could the BoC allow a company like yours, one that has 50% of the market, to miss out on getting one of the first licenses?

马云：所以说这事很艰难。央行从提出牌照到发牌花了5年时间，去年说要发也没发。它在干嘛？央行经过慎重考虑也非常痛苦，我也理解今天央行不能站出 来说什 么。国家有国家的原则，央行也很智慧。但结果就是我被支在这，这头是央行，那头是两个“混蛋”，两边把我给挤出来了，变成我是坏人。

MY: That’s why this matter is so tough. The BoC have taken 5 years to go from talking about licenses to actually giving them out. They said they’d distribute them last year, but they didn’t. What are they doing? The BoC has been through a lot of tough thinking, and I can understand their inability to stand up and talk about it. The government has its reasons, and the BoC is wise, too. But the result is that I’m standing here with the BoC on one side, and these two bastards on the other side, and they’ve squeezed me out and made me out to be the bad guy.

《中国企业家》：央行应该跟你做过一些私下、特别的沟通。

CME: You must have had some sort of special, private communication with the BoC?

马云：我们经常沟通。

MY: We’re often in touch.

《中国企业家》：在外资问题上，应该为支付宝开一个特别通道？

CME: On the question of foreign investment, should they make special allowances for Alipay?

马云：正因为50%，所以不可能。

MY: Precisely because it’s 50%, it’s impossible.

“单飞”决定怎么产生的Where did the decision to “fly solo” come from?

《中国企业家》：你们第一季度终止协议控制，按程序是不是该阿里巴巴董事会来通过批准这个？

CEM: You cut off the VIE in the first quarter of this year. According to process, shouldn’t that have been approved by the Alibaba board of directors?

马云：我们成立这个董事会6年了，没有一个决策是董事会要批准的。很多事都是在董事会外面讨论，董事会上面达成协议。我们一直以来是这样，不存在协议通过、协议反对，那乱套了。都是以会议纪要形式走的。

MY: We established the board of directors 6 years ago, and since then, not one decision has been approved by the board. A lot of things have been discussed outside of the board, and the board have come to an agreement. It’s always been this way; there’s never been any mess of approval or opposition on the board. It’s all decided in the minutes of our meetings.

这 个事情我跟你说，再给你十倍的时间也不会（通过），为什么？这涉及两个人的屁股脑袋。孙正义他(要的)就是软银(利益)，雅虎就是(要的)雅虎(利益)， 至于谁要为这个公司负责任，他不管。孙正义有无数的投资，死一个阿里巴巴，他会痛，但对他是一个，而对我们是所有。雅虎也是一样的道理。所以只要涉及到自 己短期利益大家都会反对。一说到这事，他就说：我只有两分钟，我要走了，他不表态。那这个时候你明天就要向央行交证明文件了，你不交进去就自动关掉了……

I’ll tell you, this matter wouldn’t have even been approved with ten times the time. Why? It has to do with the ass-brains of these two. Sun wants to benefit Softbank, and Yahoo wants to benefit Yahoo, and they doesn’t care who’s going to take responsibility for this company. Sun has countless investments. If Alibaba were to die, sure, he’d be sore, but to him it’s one of many. To us, it’s everything. Yahoo is a similar situation. So, if it has to do with their short-term gains, everyone will oppose. When we talked about this, he said

“I only have two minutes, I have to go,” and he didn’t give an opinion. The documents needed to be given to the BoC the next day, and if they weren’t, everything would have been automatically shut down...

《中国企业家》：这是一个不作为的董事会？

CEM: So it’s an inactive board of directors?

马云：平时都作为，但在资产处置的决定上，屁股决定脑袋。杨致远没错，孙正义也没错，他们代表股东。如果我是大股东，我也为难啊，我回去怎么跟我的 投资者 交代？所以他们干脆不表态，这个事情卡在那。那么这是谁违背了契约精神？是孙正义和杨致远违背了契约精神!作为公司的董事，你就要为这个公司承担责任。所 以我说，运营过企业的人都知道，天下没有一个制度是完美的，没有一个人是完美的，制度跟人是配套的。我面临的这种状况是制度没办法完善的。

MY: Usually it’s active, but in terms of decisions on the handling of assets, it decides with its ass. Yang Zhiyuan isn’t wrong, Sun Zhengyi isn’t wrong, they represent the shareholders. If I was a big shareholder, I’d find it tough too; what are you supposed to say to your investors? So they simply abstained, and the whole thing ground to a halt. So, who violated the spirit of the contract? It was Sun and Yand! As a director of the company, you have to take responsibility for the company. So, as people who have run businesses all know, there is no perfect system, and there are no perfect people; systems have to be made according to people. The situation in front of me is one that systems are unable to make perfect.

《中国企业家》：但是为什么大家要信奉规则，因为不是每个人都是“马云”，如果换一个品行不端的“领导者”，以承担责任的名义转移公司资产，这公司岂不……？

CEM: But why should everyone believe in the rules? Not everyone is a Jack Ma. If it were some unscrupulous “leader” shifting a company’s assets around in the name of “taking responsibility”, how wouldn’t this company...?

马云：我不是说我品行好，但假如我们不是照透明、守法的原则走的话，你以为我们今天还会在这里讨论股东表态问题？早没支付宝这家公司了，早死了，或者5%的市场都不到。

MY: I’m not saying my behaviour was good, but if we weren’t going along transparent, legal principles, do you think we would be able to sit here talking about shareholders’ opinions? Alipay would be long dead, or it would have less than 5% of the market.

《中国企业家》：你觉得在那个时刻你可以享受某种豁免？

CEM: When do you think you will be able to enjoy some immunity?

马 云：不是可以豁免，它就是一个个例。个例就是去考察你的领导力。我完全可以做到按照规则去走。而且，大家有一个巨大的误解，认为支付宝今天是挣钱的，认为 我现在这么做是为了利益。其实支付宝，是作为淘宝的一种功能诞生的，今天终止协议控制支付

宝，等于是把一个人的肝脏拿了出来，让它变成人了。谁愿意把它请 出来，多惹麻烦。一开始转让70%股权是协议控制，到了后来切断控制关系时候，是没办法了。我们也是被逼的。今 天最最重要的是我终于可以做自己，而不是装给别人看我是谁。我承认这决定不是

最完美的，但是这是唯一正确的答案。我不说我就是对的，我只是觉得我做了我认 为是对的事情。你批评我可以，但是别给我加色彩，什么违背契约精神。如果你大致了解真相，

请问如你是我你怎么做？三条路，一，公司关了，二，做假，三，先 依法律说的做，先把支付宝转出来，然后再开始进行谈判。第一条路是死的，肯定不能走；第二条路是大风险，央行可以今天不管你，明天把你管得死去活来；第三 条路，你没有董事会协议，你要承担更多责任。请问你选择哪条路？

MY: It’s not a case of immunity, it’s just an anomaly. Anomalies test your leadership capability. I can do it whilst completely following the rules. Plus, everyone’s made a huge misunderstanding, thinking that Alipay is making money today, and that I’m doing this for profit. Actually, Alipay was born to perform a new function on Taobao. Today, terminating Alipay’s VIE, it’s like taking someone’s liver out, and making it into an independent person. Who would want to take it out? It’s so much hassle. When we first transferred 70% of shares, it was a VIE, then when the VIE was cut off, there was nothing anyone can do about it. We had no choice.

The most important thing about today is that I can finally be myself, instead of pretending I’m something I’m not. I admit that this decision isn’t the most perfect one, but it’s the only answer. I’m not saying I’m correct, I’m just saying I think I’ve done what I believe to be right. You can criticize me, but don’t try to jazz it up, like I’m violating the spirit of the agreement. If you more or less understand the truth, I’d like to know how you think I could’ve done otherwise. Three options: one, close the company; two, lie; three, follow the law—first transfer Alipay out, then negotiate. The first option would have been certain death, there’s no way I could have chosen it. The second is a big risk; the BoC could leave you alone one day, then tie you up within an inch of your life the next. If you don’t have a board agreement, you have to take even more responsibility. Tell me, which one would you choose?《中国企业家》：除了这三条，你不能说服他们让他们同意把公司转出来？

CEM: Aside from these three options, couldn’t you convince them to agree to transfer the company out?

马云：说服不来。因为孙正义是真想走第二条。他说所有的人都这么走，凭什么你不能？

MY: They wouldn’t be convinced. Sun really wanted to take the second route. He said that everyone takes this route, so why wasn’t I taking it?

《中国企业家》：杨致远也想走第二条？

CEM: Did Yang Zhiyuan also want to take the second option?

马云：杨致远两边倒，这个时候是孙正义跳在前面。能不能走第二条路，是我们最大的关键点差异。

MY: Yang sat on the fence; this time it was Sun who jumped first. Whether or not the second option could be taken, was our biggest key difference.

《中国企业家》：可能包括孙正义在内，很多人觉得以你马云的活动能量，支付宝肯定能够把政策上的风险控制住。

CEM: Many people, maybe even including SZY, thought that with your capability, Alipay could control the risk from policy.

马云：记住，我讲过，我不喜欢政治，不好政治，我既不左，也不右。要好(政治)这口我今天不做企业了，要做企业就得讲法律、讲原则。这是我底线，我走到今天都快奔5了，我还去做一个违法的事？

MY: Remember, I’ve said before, I don’t like politics, I don’t play at it; I’m not on the left or the right. If I liked it, then I wouldn’t be doing business today. If you want to do business you have to follow the law, and have principles. That’s my bottom line, I’m almost 50, am I supposed to go and do something illegal?

《中国企业家》：关于停止协议控制，当时你们几个管理层商量？

CEM: About stopping the VIE, how was it discussed amongst the few of you?

马云：几乎我们阿里巴巴集团的高管都在了。没有不同意见，因为大家都对中国很了解。《中国企业家》：你们是否想过比“终止方案”稍微缓和一些的方案？

MY: Just about all of the upper management of Alibaba were there. There were no differing opinions, because everyone knows China well.

CEM: Did you think about using a more moderate policy than “the cutoff plan”?

马云：只有两种选择，没有什么别的选择：你要么是有外资，要么没有外资。但股东就是不表态。

MY: There were only two options, no others: you have foreign investment, or you don’t. But the shareholders abstained.

《中国企业家》：你把他们描述的也太不理性了吧？如果支付宝拿不到牌照，孙正义他也是最大受损者，他会坐等支付宝拿不到牌照？

CEM: The way you’re describing them is very illogical though, right? If Alipay couldn’t get a license, Sun would be the biggest loser, would he sit by and watch Alipay fail to get a license?

马云：关键就是，他觉得“马云你是有办法的，你骗我、你蒙我，中央政府一定不是这样，我中国那么多公司都是可以，凭什么你不可以？”

MY: The key is, he thought “Ma, you’re really capable, you’re cheating me - the central government isn’t like that, so many of my Chinese businesses do it this way, why can’t you?”

《中国企业家》：雅虎发表声明说它不知道股权转让这事，在说假话吗？

CEM: Yahoo announced that they didn’t know about the transfer of shares, are they lying?

马 云：你说呢？每次董事会都有纪要。它发表那声明的意思是跟它的股东说，“这是马云的责任，别告我”，实际上是在给我增加谈判的压力与筹码。为什么雅虎五月 才披露支付宝转让一事，我也不知道。我现在只能像政治家一样讲话：我不知道为什么，我也不想知道为什么。杨致远还是我朋友，我不希望给朋友太尴尬，不要把 这事变成很低档的吵架，我还得给人家尊严。

MY: What do you think? Every time we have a board meeting there are minutes taken. Them saying that is so they can say to their shareholders: “This is Ma’s responsibility, don’t blame me.” In reality, it’s giving me more pressure and bargaining chips in negotiations. Why Yahoo only revealed the Alipay transfer in May, I don’t know that either. Now, I can only speak like a politician: I don’t know why, nor do I want to. Yang Zhiyuan is still my friend, and I don’t want to embarrass my friends. I don’t want this thing to become a low-brow argument—I still have to give them my respect.

《中国企业家》：你决定终止协议控制时，考虑了其后你个人需要承担的责任与风险吗？

CEM: When you cut off the VIE, did you consider the responsibilities and risks you would need to take on?

马云：当然。我考虑了3、4个月，前面就知道这一天总归要来。这件事情真到的时候，

我作为CEO我一定要承担责任。你是让公司全面垮掉，还是先让它活下来，然后(与股东)讨论利益——同时在这过程中被人指责？

MY: Of course. I thought about it for 3 or 4 months, and I knew that this day would have to come sometime. When this thing really arrived, I had to take responsibility for it because I’m the CEO. Do you let the company fail, or keep it alive, then talk [to the shareholders] about their interests—whilst being blamed by others in the process?

《中国企业家》：你知道可能被人指责。

CEM: You knew you might be blamed by others? 马云：那当然，但是我没想到这件事情会指责到道德、契约精神上去，搞到这个方向是我没想到的。

MY: Of course, but I didn’t expect that this thing would point out morality, or violation of the spirit of the agreement. I didn’t expect it to be taken in this direction.

《中国企业家》：那你本来想象的是什么样的指责呢？

CEM: What type of blame did you expect?

马 云：我本来的判断：雅虎和软银会提出他们的利益不公平，希望能够获取更多的利益。我估计是这个。我没有想到国内的媒体会上升到说：我们大家都应该想办法绕 过法律。现在大家在教我应该绕开法律。我觉得，如果按照有些人所谓的狭义的契约精神(去做)，我那是违法。所以我的困境在于，董事会现状，加上央行规定， 我没办法做出一个完美的决策。但我最悲哀的是你在做出这么一个所谓唯一的正确决定的时候，我被人贴上一个没诚信、不讲契约的标签。我完全可以不诚信，面对 央行问“你有没有、你是不是外资”的时候，说我不是外资的。

MY: My original analysis was that Yahoo and Softbank would point out that their interests were [being treated unfairly], and would try to retain them. I guess that’s what I was expecting. I didn’t expect that the domestic media would rise up and say we should have thought of ways to get around the law. Right now, everyone is telling me to circumvent the law. I believe that if I acted by the ‘agreed-upon spirit’ that they were talking about, I would have been breaking the law. So, my problem now is the situation with the board of directors, add to that the BoC’s regulations, I can’t make a perfect strategy. But what saddens me the most is that after making such a so-called tough decision, I’ve been labelled as dishonest, and that I have no respect for agreements. I could have been totally dishonest; when the BoC asked “Do you have foreign investment?”, I could have said “No.”

谈协议控制About the VIE

《中国企业家》：但是协议控制这事儿，本来在中国也不是一个非法的东西。

CEM: But having a VIE is not illegal in China.

马云：是这样的：央行一季度那两封信，很明确问这个问题：你今天是协议控制的、还是非协议控制，如果你是协议控制的那么你这次就不要报了，你如果非协议控制你得声明、保证。所以这不存在协议控制合法不合法的问题，是你声不声明的问题，这个事你怎么弄？

MY: It’s like this, those two letters from the BoC in the first quarter of this year asked the question very clearly: do you have a VIE or not? If you do, then you don’t need to report to the State Council today, but if you don’t, you need to make a declaration and guarantee it. So there’s no question of whether or not a VIE is legal or not, it’s whether or not you’re going to declare it. How would you deal with that?

《中国企业家》：但是你刚才说在这信下来之前的三四个月你就在考虑中止协议控制了？

CEM: But you just said that in the three or four months before this letter came, you had been considering terminating the agreement control.

马云：在两封信之前，我们也认为这事没有那么严重，也是按照协议控制来做。但当你

跟央行打交道过程中，你作为领导者得判断万一政策往什么方向走，你要做什么策略，这是我作为CEO的职责啊，有些事你必须得考虑。

MY: Before these two letters arrived, we thought this matter wasn’t such a big deal, and we were proceeding based on the VIE. But when you’re dealing with the BoC, as a leader you have to decide how you’re going to change your tactics in case there’s a change in policy. This is my responsibility as CEO; there are certain things that you have to consider.

《中国企业家》：你一直在跟董事会预警？

CEM: Were you always warning the board?

马云：当然，他们百分之百知道。但到今天，每个人都推卸责任。现在我是被逼着把这些真实讲出来，否则跟我有什么关系？杨致远和孙正义这两人还是我朋友，还有情义在。

MY: Of course. They are one-hundred percent aware of that. But until today, everyone has been avoiding responsibility. Now, I’ve been forced to tell the truth, otherwise what does it have to do with me? Yang Zhiyuan and Sun Zhengyi are still my friends; there’s still affection there.

《中国企业家》：当你告诉他们你们单方面终止协议控制时，他们惊讶吗？

CEM: When you told them you were going to unilaterally cut off the control agreement, were they surprised?

马云：当然惊讶。杨致远3月31日收到这个被核定报表的东西以后，他应该尽快汇报给雅虎股东，但他到5月份才报。所以现在雅虎美国股东是怪雅虎，不是怪我们。

MY: Of course they were. When Yang received the forms, he should have immediately told the Yahoo shareholders, but he waited until May to tell them. So now, Yahoo’s US shareholders blame Yahoo, not us.

《中国企业家》：你终止协议控制相当于将了雅虎与软银一军。

CEM: Cutting off the agreement control was pitting yourself against Yahoo and Softbank.

马云：以前这个火球在我手上，他们不说话，我倒来倒去不知怎么弄，现在给他们了。

MY: Before, this fireball was in my hands, and they said nothing. I was falling all over the place, not knowing what to do, and now I’ve given it to them.

《中国企业家》：现在因为你这个事，动静越闹越大。

CEM: And now it’s a big deal.

马 云：问题就在这个地方。之前(同行)有一些举报我的，说支付宝是协议控制，这就

是为什么央行一季度给我来了一封那样的信。所以我只好交代。然后本来我是不 关心别人考试得了100分是否作弊，我只保证我不作弊(注：即保证支付宝非协议控制)，但我现在为什么不作弊得了85分，还被人骂？我只按照我的原则做。 我认为这个事情现在捅大了反而大家看清楚，谁诚信谁不诚信。你们今天不能说：你遵守大法是错了，让我们来探讨下法对不对。法对不对那是另外一回事，不要跟 我讲这个。法对不对是你们来评论的，我毕竟不是制订法律的人。

MY: That’s the problem. In the past, there have been people in the industry who have reported me to the authorities, saying Alipay has a VIE. That’s why the BoC sent me that letter in the first quarter. So I had to confess. I don’t really care if someone else cheats on an exam and gets 100 percent, but I can guarantee that I didn’t cheat [note: declare that Alipay did not have a VIE], but why am I now getting 85 percent without cheating, and getting cursed? I’m just acting on my principles. I believe that now this matter has blown up, people can see it clearly, see who’s honest and who’s dishonest. You can’t say: “Following the law is wrong, let’s discuss the rights and wrongs of the law.” That’s a different matter, and I don’t want to discuss it. Whether or not the law is correct is for you to discuss; I’m not a lawmaker.

再谈流程与责任Process and Responsibility

《中国企业家》：整个过程中你有什么错误吗？

CEM: Were there any mistakes in the process?

马云：我觉得错误肯定有，但是我自己觉得，我今天在一个这样的局面下做决定，应该要引起全世界做企业的去思考，并且学习。

MY: I think there were definitely mistakes, but I think that making a decision in the situation that I find myself in, will probably provoke the world’s businesspeople to think a little, and learn from it.

《中国企业家》：学习？

CEM: Learn?

马 云：应该学习。我相信十个企业里面有九个不敢做这个决定。一条路是你作假，一条路是你不拿牌照就死掉了，一条路是继续承担责任。我认为是很艰难、非常难的 决定。如果国外有家企业这么做，一定会成为中国企业家的一个学习案例，但在中国恰恰被倒过来看了，一些年轻人会被伪评论者影响。

MY: They should learn from it. I believe that out of 10 businesses, 9 wouldn’t dare to make this decision. One route is to lie, one is to not get a license and die, and the third is to continue to take responsibility. I believe it’s a very tough, extremely hard decision. If a foreign company did this, it would definitely become an example that Chinese businesspeople would study. But in China, it’s been dragged out, and some young people

will be influenced by false criticism.

《中国企业家》：但是事实上，你在最后单方面终止协议控制那一把上还是有冲破规则的嫌疑吧？

CEM: But in fact, isn’t it a little suspicious to unilaterally cut off the VIE so quickly?

马云：这就是我们刚才说的过程重要还是结果重要。大企业定流程重要，没有流程没有法规大企业运营不好。但个性案例到关键的时刻，你需要……

MY: This is what I was just saying about whether it’s the process or the result that is the most important. Big industry dictates that it’s the process that’s more important; without process or regulation, industry operates badly. But when a special case comes down to the key moment, you need to...

《中国企业家》：关键时刻流程就不重要了？

CEM: When it comes to the crunch, process isn’t important?

马云：一定是不重要，最关键的时候职业经理人愿意做的就是流程，他不用承担责任。流程是让你逃避责任，你按照流程做完的流程不会错的，错也是流程错，跟我有什么关系。而我需要承担责任。MY: It’s certainly important. At the key moment, a professional manager wants process, so he doesn’t need to take responsibility. Process takes responsibility out of your hands; you can’t be wrong if you’re following process, and if it’s wrong, it’s the process’s fault, and it has nothing to do with me. But I had to take responsibility.

与孙正义历来的矛盾Historical conflict with Sun Zhengyi

《中国企业家》：你知道终止协议控制这个决定做出之后，跟软银就彻底决裂了。

CEM: You knew that after deciding to terminate the VIE, you’d be completely split from Softbank.

马云：也不怎么决裂。我们白天闹闹吵吵晚上一样喝酒。MY: We’re not really that split. We argue it out in the day, then go for a drink in the evening.

《中国企业家》：你最近跟孙正义沟通过？

CEM: Have you and Sun been in touch recently?

马云：沟通啊，过几天还要去日本给他站台。(注：马云在6月25日日本举行的软银股东大会上高票连任软银集团董事会成员，孙正义表示“我和马云是好朋友，而且是很重要的生意伙伴，所以我们彼此非常信任。不用担心。”)

MY: Yes we have, and in a few days I’ll be going to Japan to support him. (Note: At Softbank’s shareholders summit on June 25 in Japan, a landslide vote saw Ma continue to be a member of Softbank’s board of directors, and Sun Zhengyi stated: “Jack Ma and I are still good friends, and he is an important business partner, so we have great confidence in each other. There’s no need to worry.”)

《中国企业家》：他现在那么沉默为什么？

CEM: Why is he so silent now?

马云：他永远不出牌，他谈判的战术就是不出牌，逼死你。他把你逼到墙角上，他不出牌。他现在也不出牌，他等雅虎出牌，因为雅虎比他(谈判)位置更差。孙正义的想法比雅虎多多了，狡猾多了。

MY: He never shows his cards, his negotiation tactic is never to show his cards, and to force you. He’ll force you into a corner without showing his cards. He still hasn’t shown his cards, he’s waiting for Yahoo to do it, because Yahoo’s bargaining position is worse than his. Sun’s thinking a lot harder than Yahoo, he’s a lot more crafty.

《中国企业家》：现在软银还没有提出任何要求？

CEM: Softbank hasn’t asked for anything yet?

马云：这个家伙谈判的水平太高了。我有时候在他董事会上看他跟别人谈，觉得这家伙真正厉害。在有的问题上，我不同意他，他认为员工是随时可以换的。 我相信 要给中国的年轻人机会，与他们共同分享未来。第一，我不同意日本一定是对的，第二，这放在中国肯定是错的，我相信客户第一，员工第二，没有员工就没有这家 公司。我们俩在这上面的原则完全不一样。

MY: This guy is incredibly good at negotiation. Sometimes I see him negotiating with others at the board meetings, and think that this guy is really something. I disagree with him on some things; he believes that workers can be switched whenever. I believe in giving opportunities to China’s youth, to share the future with them. First, I don’t believe that Japan is definitely right, second, putting this in China is definitely wrong. In China, I believe in customer first, workers second - if you don’t have workers then you don’t have a company. Our principles on this matter are completely different.

《中国企业家》：这矛盾什么时候开始的？

CEM: When did this conflict begin?

马云：一直这样，这几年天天吵架，你看阿里巴巴从成立到今天为止，我的股份就越来越少，基本上就是把自己稀释出去了。他到今天为止从第一天30%到今天，30%已经过了，一点都没有稀释，你看看他给不给员工东西。

MY: It’s always been like this, we’ve argued every day for the past few years, look at the time that’s passed since Alibaba was founded until today; my share holding has got smaller and smaller, I’ve basically been diluting myself out. Up to today, he’s gone from

30%, and now he has more than that. He hasn’t diluted himself at all. Look at whether or not he gives anything to the workers.

《中国企业家》：这是你们最大的矛盾。

CEM: This is your biggest conflict.

马云：这是原则。我说你不愿意让给员工，没关系，我们尊重你，我们让出来。我个人损失没关系，今天阿里巴巴1万7千名员工都有股票的，都是我们让出来的。但是你不能到极限，到了今天这个公司生死存亡的时候你还是不愿意承担责任，那我就要翻脸了。

MY: It’s a matter of principle. I said to him, if you don’t want to give anything to the workers, that’s no problem, we respect you, we’ll let you do as you wish. If I lose out myself, that’s fine, Alibaba’s 17000 workers all have shares, all of which came from us. But you can’t go to the extreme; if we’re coming to a situation like the one we have today, where the company will live or die, and you still don’t want to take responsibility, then I have to get hostile.

《中国企业家》：他从来没有让过？

CEM: He never gave anything away?

马云：问他拿1%，就像活老虎拔牙一样，每一次吵架都不开心，好像你拿到股份等于把他皮活剥了。他有两招是天下第一，我佩服他。第一是谈判天下第 一，第二 是铁公鸡天下第一。他开始跟你谈判很厉害，比如说你只要两千万，他给你三千万。因为他钱比你多，筹码比你多，拿个5万块出来跟你拿50块一样，接下来一 步，哈哈哈，你就被他摁住了。他有他的谈判技巧，但是在员工发展这件事上我觉得我不同意。

MY: Asking him for 1% is like trying to pull out a live tiger’s tooth. Every time we argued he was unhappy, like taking shares from him was like you’d skinned him alive. He has two world titles, and I respect him for them; the first is that he’s the world’s best negotiator, the second is that he’s the world’s biggest cheapskate. He’ll start negotiating with you very aggressively, for example if you only want 20 million, he’ll give you 30 million. Because he has more money than you, his bargaining chips are bigger than yours, pulling out 50 thousand for him is like you pulling out 50. Then at the next step, hahaha, you’re under his finger. He has his negotiating skill, but on the subject of worker development he and I don’t agree.

《中国企业家》：你们提出来几次过？

CEM: How many times did you bring it up?

马云：他也知道我翻脸就来了，但是我拿他没办法的原因很简单，他是股东，他的选择不能说对和错，只是我们两个不同而已。我们有很多不一样的东西很正常，吵吵闹闹不影响做朋友间的事。

MY: He also knew I was going to get hostile, but the reason I couldn’t do anything about him was very simple, he’s a shareholder, his choices can’t be called right or wrong, it’s

just that we’re different. It’s normal that we have lots of differences, arguing doesn’t affect our friendship.

《中国企业家》：你跟雅虎、软银谈补偿依据一些什么样原则？

CEM: What kind of principles are your compensation negotiations with Yahoo and Softbank based on?

马云：第一，百分之百合法，百分之百透明。第二是不能影响阿里巴巴的发展，不能把利益转移到支付宝，让淘宝和阿里巴巴吃亏。第三，今天的补偿和未来的补偿都要有，因为这个事情是全世界都要知道的。

MY: First, 100 percent legal, 100 percent transparent. The second is that it can’t affect the development of Alibaba, it can’t transfer benefits onto Alipay, and let Taobao and Alibaba lose out. Third, there must be compensation today and in the future, as this is something that the whole world needs to know about.b 《中国企业家》：补偿金额可能到达什么级别呢？

CEM: What kind of figure might the compensation come to?

马云：补偿会很大，很大。但是换句话说我觉得最后肯定是客观的，他们有他们的要求，我们有我们的原则，谈判出来的。

MY: The compensation will be large, very large. But to put it another way, I think that in the end it will definitely be impartial. They have their demands, and we have our principles, and we’ll negotiate it out.

《中国企业家》：时间上？几时落定？

CEM: And in terms of time? When will it be set down?

马云：现在球在他们这呢!我压力不大了。(注：前一天马云在给本刊记者的短信里说“此事已接近尾声了”；6月22日，雅虎、阿里巴巴和软银发布联合声明，称关于支付宝股权的谈判已“取得实质性和令人鼓舞的进展”，有望达成协议。)

MY: The ball’s in their court now! I’m not under pressure. (Note: The previous day, Ma told CEM in a text message that “This matter is almost over”, and on June 22, Yahoo, Alibaba and Softbank made a joint announcement, saying that they had “come to a substantive and heartening development” in the negotiations over the transfer of Alipay shares, and that they hoped to reach an agreement.)

《中国企业家》：你是让他们开价？

CEM: Did you let them quote a price?

马云：对，我的压力来自于这边的批评者和媒体。本来没多大事，可以好好谈，现在变成了这边给我压力。现在美国政府(给我们)的压力多了去了，我有些 话不能 在这个场合上

讲而已。有些事情我要十年以后讲，十年以后也不是这些政府，也不是这个情况，我就好办。我今天说的嘴巴痛快了，明天还不活了？

MY: Yes, my pressure comes from critics and media on this side. Originally, it wasn’t a very big deal, we could have talked about it thoroughly, but now it’s become pressured from this side. Now the pressure on me from the US Government has gone and increased. There are some things that I can’t say ahere. There are some things that I’ll be able to talk about in 10 years, because in 10 years’ time it won’t be these governments, or this situation, and it’ll be easier to deal with. Am I supposed to run my mouth today, and die tomorrow?

《中国企业家》：两三年前就有传言说国内某些集团想入股支付宝？

CEM: Two or three years ago there were rumours saying that some domestic corporations wanted to buy into Alipay?

马云：想入股的多了去了，今天这个事没清除之前，想都没用。受让支付宝股份的是浙江阿里巴巴电子商务有限公司，股东是我跟谢世煌。谢世煌跟我两个人 是十几 家公司的注册股东。阿里巴巴18个创始人里经常用谢的名字去工商注册。这家公司的作用就是告诉央行，支付宝是百分之百内资，然后这个公司还会进行股权转 让。

MY: There were many. Before this matter was eliminated today, I thought it was useless. Zhejiang Alibaba was the recipient of Alipay shares, and the shareholders were myself and Xie Shihuang. Xie and I are registered shareholders of more than ten companies. Of 18 Alibaba founders , some would often use Xie’s name to register. This company’s use is to let the BoC know that Alipay is completely Chinese invested, and that this company can carry out share transfers.

《中国企业家》：支付宝股权改造你们有一些大体的思路没有？

CEM: Do you have any thoughts as to restructuring Alipay’s share rights structure?

马云：没有，现在这个事还弄不清，还什么思路。

MY: No, we haven’t even sorted this issue yet, how could we be thinking about that? 《中国企业家》：将来国有股份肯定有一块？

CEM: In future there must be a state-owned portion of shares?

马云：现在外资不能进来呀？

MY: Can’t foreign investors come in?

《中国企业家》：民间资本可以有？

CEM: What about private investors?

马云：当然，我们欢迎民间资本，这是将来讨论的。反正这个事是这样的：今天补偿

雅虎和软银贵了，将来国内进来的人就贵了。所以今天满足这个，未来明天那个没了。哎哟，复杂了。评论者只是一图口舌之快反正跟自己没关系，说你好、说你坏，其实背后有我们大量的心血和工作。

MY: Of course, we welcome private investors, this is something we’ll talk about in the future. Anyway, it’s like this: if we compensating Yahoo and Softbank is expensive, it’ll be expensive to bring in domestic investors in the future. So today we’ll satisfy this one, and then in the future there won’t be another. Ayo, it’s complicated. A few [a few quick snaps of the tongue] from critics have nothing to do with you, they say you’re good, they say you’re bad, but in the background there’s a lot of tough work.

与雅虎关系Relationship with Yahoo

《中国企业家》：你们现在在支付宝问题上，表现得这么决绝，是不是跟你们急于摆脱与雅虎的股权控制有关系？我理解这是一个很好的机会，牌照政策帮了你们。

CEM: On the topic of Alipay now, you appear very determined. Is that because you’re anxious to break away from Yahoo? It seems like a great opportunity to me, licensing policy has helped you out.

马云：人啊，就是猜测的因素多了一点，我们没那么……如果真的去想那些阴谋诡计的东西，我们做不起来。

MY: People are guessing at so many reasons, but we aren’t so...even if we were really considering those kinds of crafty plots, we couldn’t carry them out.

《中国企业家》：这不一定是阴谋，这是一次机会。

CEM: It’s not necessarily a plot, just an opportunity.

马云：人生不缺机会，我们还有90年要走。机会可以一次次来，我觉得什么东西该做、不该做，这个原则一定要清楚。你怎么想到雅虎今天会变成这个样 子？你怎 么知道明天孙正义会变成什么样子？什么都有可能。但你要知道什么东西不该做，尤其在雅虎出现摇摇晃晃的时候，你真不应该下狠手，要下狠手我早就跟人联手把 它弄得一塌糊涂。

CEM: There are plenty of opportunities in life, we still have another 90 years. We can take opportunities as they come. I think that principles on what we should and shouldn’t do need to be clear. How could you have predicted that Yahoo would turn out like this? How could you have known that Sun would turn into this? Anything is possible. But you need to know what you shouldn’t do, especially when the boat is rocking, you can’t get fierce. If he had got fierce I would have long since joined up with others to mess him up.

《中国企业家》：去年没有人来找你们吗？

CEM: Did no-one come for you last year?

马云：多了去了，哪个人想收购雅虎没找过我？

MY: Many. Anyone who ever wanted to buy Yahoo came to me.

《中国企业家》：你从来没动过心？

CEM: You were never moved?

马云：人都有良心。

MY: People have a conscience.

《中国企业家》：主要是因为雅虎现在也没有什么好资产。

CEM: It’s mostly because Yahoo doesn’t have any assets now.

马云：我们自己要做该做必须做的事太多，干吗去看别人口袋的事。换句话说人家雅虎也没做过什么坏事，孙正义只不过出一些馊主意多一点，我们只是原则不一样，但是我们可以和谐相处。你今天换另一些股东可能更糟糕。

MY: We have too many things we want to do ourselves, why would we go and get involved in others’ business? To put it another way, Yahoo hasn’t done anything wrong, Sun just had a few terrible ideas, and our principles are just different, but we can get along harmoniously. If it were a few other shareholders today, it might be much worse.

《中国企业家》：现在雅虎在阿里集团的股权问题的解决到什么进度了？

CEM: To what degree is the question of Yahoo’s shareholding in Ali Group solved right now?

马 云：我们不着急，换句话说，换一个股东可能更复杂。我们有机会就做(股权调整的事)，没机会的话，我觉得只要我的客户对这家公司满意，我跟股东的关系是我 马云的难处，我没必要公布给整个社会。但是如果跟客户利益发生矛盾了，跟国家大法有矛盾了，我就要翻脸了，那个事情就是我的责任。股东之间吵吵太正常了， 我说孙正义是“混蛋”，人家说你怎么这样讲话？我就是这个样子怎么办？我们在私下里关系很好。在董事会他跟我吵得死去活来，完了之后该喝酒的喝酒，该聊天 聊天。我讲话比较直接、看起来很感性，实际上我得理性，这么大公司不是你个人的。

MY: We’re in no hurry, or you could say that if it was any other shareholder it would be more complicated. When we have an opportunity we’ll do it [re-arrange the stock rights], but if there isn’t an opportunity, I think that as long as our customers are satisfied with the company, my relationship with the shareholders is my own problem. I don’t have to let the whole of society know about it. But if there’s conflict with the customers, or with the law of the land, I have to get hostile, that’s my responsibility. Arguments between shareholders are completely normal, I’ve called Sun a bastard, and people say “how can you talk like that?” That’s what I’m like, so what? In private, we get on very well. On the board, we argue to within an inch of our lives, and afterwards those who need a drink go for one,

and those who want to chat, have a chat. I speak directly, people think I’m very sensitive, but in reality I’m very rational, this huge company isn’t entirely mine.