Gottfried Böhm, Interview8 9oris, number 70, year 2011

Gottfried Böhm

Usprkos svojoj dobi još nisam vidio ni u drugih ni vlastito likov­no umjetničko djelo kakvo imam pred očima od mladosti. Lebdi u mojoj predodžbi, ponekad se čak iskristalizira u snu, ali još ga nikada nisam mogao u potpunosti obuhvatiti ni ostvariti.

Hermann Finsterlin

¶ Danas, na prijelazu sekularne u postsekularnu eru, razum i duhovnost ulaze u novi međusobni odnos. Tako se i u arhitekturi opet pojavljuje interes za osobnosti, koje je enciklopedijska moderna prognala u sjenu i oduzela im vjerodostojnost. Svaki je europski kulturni krug imao svoje disidente, koji su se ubrzanim izmjenama avangardi vezanih uz duh vremena suprotstavljali na subjektivni i produhovljeni način. ¶ Koliko god bili ti protagonisti međusobno različiti i neusporedivi, bila im je zajednička definicija Huga Häringa da je arhitektura kultna forma, koja ne treba posjedovati formalno jedinstvo. Njeno ishodište je uvijek živa bit koja treba razvijati vlastiti subjektivni oblik. Geometrijske figure prebaciti preko stvari značilo bi preformirati i mehanizirati ih – umrtviti život. Treba težiti individualnosti i izražaju, arhitekturu i njenu duhovnu autonomiju nije moguće reducirati na tehničku znanost, na korporaciju normiranog života. ¶ Posve je jasno da ove strelice gađaju u pravcu lijevog Gropiusova Bauhausa. Istovremeno se uklapaju u arhitektonsku, ekspresivnu poetiku Gottfrieda Böhma i reflektiraju duhovni stav njegovih istomišljenika iz

Boris Podrecca

napisaowritten by

‘Despite my age, I still have not seen others or myself make the work of art that I have had in front of my eyes since my youth. It floats in my mind, sometimes even crystallizes in my sleep, but I have never been able to fully capture or accomplish it.’

Hermann Finsterlin

¶ Today, at the turn of the secular into the post-secular era, reason and spirituality are entering into a new relationship. Architecture has also shown an interest for personalities, which were obscured and discredited by encyclopaedic modernism. Each European cultural circle had its dissidents. When faced with a quick succession of trendy avant-gardes, they opposed them in a subjective and spiritual way. ¶ As much as these protagonists were different and incomparable, they were all covered by the definition of Hugo Häring: architecture was a cult form, which did not need formal unity. Its origin was the ever-living essence, which should develop its own subjective form. To place geometric figures over things meant to reshape and mechanize them, to deaden life. One should strive for individuality and expression. Architecture and its spiritual autonomy could not be reduced to technical science, to the organization of a standardized life. ¶ Obviously, it was a stab at Gropius and his leftist Bauhaus. At the same time, it fits with the architectural, expressive philosophy of Gottfried Böhm, and reflected the spiritual attitude of his like-minded

Kelnska škola – skica jedne reaktualizacije

The Cologne School – Relevant Once Again

fotografije photographs byportret portrait

Gottfried Böhm arhiva/ archiveDamil Kalogjera

oris, broj 70, godina 2011

Gottfried Böhm, Interview10 11oris, number 70, year 2011

Kölna. ¶ Böhmov otac Dominikus dominirao je arhitektonskim miljeom ‘kelnskog ceha’. U prvom planu bili su kontakti s ta-da procvalim katoličkim liturgijskim pokretom, u smislu aktiviranja zamrlog života zajednice. Ideal je predstavljao novi tipološki i prostorni ideogram, oslonjen o romaniku. Va-žan je također bio filozof August Schmarsow i njegova teza da bit neke građevine nije u njenoj formi, već u prostornom sistemu, zatim i ideje Theodora Lippsa, jednog predstavnika psihologizma, čije su se analize temeljile na pojmovima po-put empatije, estetskog užitka ili elementarnog osjećaja. Ta debata, vođena o prijelomu stoljeća, dovela je do proširenja odviše krutog shvaćanja umjetnosti oblikovanja prostora. ¶ ¶ Spoznaja važna za arhitekturu bila je da prostor koji stvari okružuje nije prazan, već je ispunjen životom te sudjeluje u životnosti ljudi i stvari, a postala je postulatom arhitekta Rudolfa Schwarza. Prostorno prepletanje odnosa postalo je lajt motivom toga vjernog, ranog suradnika Dominikusa Böhma. Schwarz, koji je slovio kao predvodnik te grupe iz Kölna, bio je percipiran daleko preko regionalnih granica, a imao je i veliki utjecaj na Gottfrieda Böhma. ¶ Kod nekih od Böhmovih građevina možemo gotovo očitati Schwarzovu defi-niciju da je arhitektonska tema prostora kristal kroz koji je moguće kretanje, gdje je moguće osjetiti uvrštenost građevnih elemenata u prostornoj rešetci. ¶ Tome je blizak bio misaoni sustav teologa Romana Guardinija, između osta log značajnog protagonista rajnske ekumene i žestokog pro tiv nika dolazećeg nacizma. Rodom iz Verone, kao dijete je s roditeljima preselio u Njemačku, formirao je duhovnost ranokršćanskog tipa. ¶ Polaritet ozbiljnosti i igre u liturgijskom prostoru imao je odlučan utjecaj na arhitekte kao što su Rudolf Schwarz, Emil Steffan i Heinz Bienefeld. Također u jednom od njegovih opisa prostorne interpretacije nalazimo odjek Böhmove formalne patetike: ‘Različite planine tvore stube velikog stubišta koje se spušta u nizinu. Cijeli je Okcident zgrada čija sredina su Alpe, tajnoviti unutarnji prostor je golemo naslagano ognjište, žrtveni oltar na koji se izlijevaju posvećeni darovi’. ¶ Svi ti prim jeri vode pojmu kulta u pro duhovljenoj prostornoj tvorevini grupe Kölner Schule (Kelnske škole), u smislu sub-jekti viranja arhitektonskog artefakta, traganja za živim oblič-jem, a vode u dubinu estetike koja dopire do granica mistike. ¶ U pro jektu moderne, ako je shvaćamo u širem smislu a ne doktrinarno, bila je conditio tih lateralnih napora definiranja novog čovjeka, popraćena relativnim uspjehom. Pragma arhi-tekture predstavljala je ključni kamen spoticanja. Pa ipak u pomanjkanju utopija našeg doba, u vrijeme već spomenute postsekularne ere, takve duhovne obnove djeluju upravo os-vje žavajuće i predstavljaju kontrapunkt.

colleagues in Cologne. ¶ Böhm’s father Dominikus dominated the architectural scene of the ‘Cologne Guild’. Much importance was given to the contacts with the blossoming Catholic liturgical movement in order to revive the withered life of the community. The ideal was a new typological and spatial ideogram that relied on Romanesque art. Significant ideas included the claim of the philosopher August Schmarsow that the essence of a building is not in its form, but in its spatial system, and the ideas of Theodor Lipps, a representative of psychologism, whose analyses were based on concepts such as empathy, aesthetic pleasure or elementary feeling. This debate at the turn of the century led to the expansion of a too rigid understanding of the art of shaping space. ¶ A notion important for architecture was that the space around things was not empty but filled with life, participating in the vitality of people and objects. It became a postulate of the architect Rudolf Schwarz. The spatial interweaving of relationships became a leitmotif of that faithful early collaborator of Dominikus Böhm. Schwarz, known as the flagship of the Cologne Group, was well known far beyond this region and had a great influence on Gottfried Böhm. ¶ Some of Böhm’s buildings are almost an embodiment of Schwarz’s definition that the architectural theme of a space is a crystal that one can move through and feel the inclusion of building elements in the spatial grid. ¶ It was close to the thinking system of the teologian Romano Guardini, who was a significant protagonist of Rhine ecumenism and a fierce opponent of rising Nazism. Born in Verona, he moved with his parents to Germany as a child and developed a kind of early Christian spirituality. ¶ The polarity of seriousness and play in a liturgical space had a decisive influence on architects such as Rudolf Schwarz, Emil Steffan and Heinz Bienefeld. Also, one of his descriptions of spatial interpretation echoes the formal pathos of Böhm: ‘Various mountains form the stairs of a large staircase which descends into the valley. The whole Occident is a building with the Alps in the middle. The mysterious inner space is a huge piled-up fireplace, a sacrificial altar where consecrated gifts are poured.’ ¶ All these concepts lead to the notion of a cult in a spiritual space creation of the Cologne School group, in terms of making the architectural artefact more subjective, looking for a living form. They lead to the depths of an aesthetic that borders on mysticism. ¶ In the project of modernity, if understood in a broader sense rather than as a doctrine, the conditio of these lateral efforts to define a new man was relatively successful. The pragmatism of architecture was a crucial stumbling block. Yet, in our time which lacks utopias, in the post-secular era we mentioned, such spiritual renewals are a refreshing counterpoint.

Importance of Emotional Component in the Experience of Architecture

Andrej HrauskyVera Grimmer

fotografije photographs by

portreti portraits

Interviewed in Zagreb 22 October 2010

Inge Bartholomé (IB)Arhiva Gottfried Böhm/ Gottfried Böhm archive (GB)Peter Kleinert (PK)Marie Luise Mantei (MLM)Arved van der Ropp (AR)Lukas Roth (LR)Hugo Schmölz © Rheinisches Bildarchiv Köln (HS)Karl Hugo Schmölz © Rheinisches Bildarchiv Köln (KHS)Damil Kalogjera

Peter Böhm Gottfried Böhm

Oris — Enlightenment and Romanticism are the opposite poles of the two great currents of the German history of culture and spirit. In recent German architecture, the pa­radigms of these two poles are probably Mies’s New Gallery and Scharoun’s Philharmonic Building. Considering this duality, your opus belongs to the realm of Romanticism, wouldn’t you agree? I am thinking of your exceptional work, the Church of St Mary in Neviges, which is characterized by a strong sculptural nature and a complete freedom from any kind of rational bounds. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — I do not know. I can only say that I have a far more intense relationship

Dominikus Böhm, St Joseph’s Church,

Zabrze, Poland, 1930

Rudolf Schwarz, St Anna’s Church, Cologne,

Germany, 1955 - 56

Gottfried Böhm, Intervjuoris, broj 70, godina 2011

Važnost emocionalne komponente u doživljaju arhitekture

razgovaraliinterviewed by

razgovarali u Zagrebu 22. listopada 2010.

Oris — Prosvjetiteljstvo i romantizam predstavljaju su­protstav ljene polove dvaju velikih smjerova njemačke po­vijesti kulture i duha, u novijoj njemačkoj arhitekturi vje­rojatno ta dva pola paradigmatski obilježavaju Miesova Nova galerija odnosno Scharounova zgrada Filharmonije. U smislu te dualnosti možda bismo vaš opus mogli svrstati u sferu romantizma, biste li se s time složili? Pomišljam na vaše izuzetno djelo, crkvu Sv. Marije u Nevigesu, koju karakterizira snažna skulpturalnost i potpuna oslobođenost od bilo kak­vih racionalnih granica. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Ne bih znao. Mogu samo reći da je zapravo moj odnos prema Miesu

Dominikus Böhm, crkva Sv. Josipa,

Zabrze, Poljska, 1930.

Rudolf Schwarz, crkva Sv. Ane, Köln,

Njemačka, 1955.–56.

Gottfried Böhm, Interview12 13oris, number 70, year 2011

Gottfried Böhm, St Kolumba’s Chapel,

Cologne, Germany, 1947

(KHS)

Gottfried Böhm, St Kolumba’s Chapel, Cologne, Germany, 1947

(KHS)

Gottfried Böhm, St Kolumba’s Chapel,

Cologne, Germany, 1947, drawing

(GB)

with Mies than the so-called Romantics you mentioned. As a young man, I made a point of travelling to Mies. I visited him in Chicago in the early 1950s and I was very impressed by our talks and everything else. He was incredibly kind. I had the impression that he thought the world of my father. He talked very nicely about his visit to Cologne, where he saw my first built work, the Kolumba Chapel. Interestingly, he recommended that I get in touch with Frank Lloyd Wright, which surprised me at the time. Still, I built differently than him. Perhaps it is indeed as you say.Oris — We should mention your love for sculpture and, of course, your study of sculpture. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Yes, I studied sculpture even before architecture. My father told me: ‘Study sculpture, but take a look at the other side, at architecture.’ I was into sculpture for a long time.Oris — Where did you study sculpture? Tell us more about how your relation to sculpture and sculptural forms. What did you achieve or try to explore by this? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — I studied in Munich. The sculptor Hänselmann was a very good teacher, a master of the technique, but not only that. Of course, it influenced my architecture, or at least that is what people say. Even I believe that the influence was strong. ¶ Peter Böhm — The influence of Mies’s architecture on the work of my father was very clear in his first residential building in Cologne Weiss, but there are also noticeable differences.

Gottfried Böhm, Intervjuoris, broj 70, godina 2011

daleko intenzivniji nego prema takozvanim romantičarima koje ste spomenuli. Kao mladić posebno sam putovao Miesu, posjetio sam ga u Chicagu početkom pedesetih, to me tada vrlo impresioniralo, razgovori i sve drugo. Bio je izvanredno prijazan. Imao sam dojam da je vrlo cijenio mojeg oca. Vrlo je lijepo pričao o svom posjetu Kölnu gdje je vidio i moju prvu realizaciju kapele svete Kolumbe. Preporučio mi je da stupim u vezu s Frankom Lloydom Wrightom, što me tada iznenadilo. No, bez obzira na to gradio sam drugačije od njega. Možda je zaista tako kako vi kažete.Oris — Vjerojatno je važna i vaša sklonost skulpturi, dakako i studij kiparstva. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Da, prije arhitekture studirao sam kiparstvo. Otac mi je tada savjetovao: ‘Studiraj

Gottfried Böhm, kapelica Sv. Kolumbe, Köln, Njemačka, 1947.

Gottfried Böhm, kapelica Sv. Kolumbe, Köln, Njemačka, 1947.

Gottfried Böhm, kapelica Sv. Kolumbe,

Köln, Njemačka, 1947., crtež

Gottfried Böhm, Interview14 15oris, number 70, year 2011

Gottfried Böhm with his students

(GB)

Gottfried Böhm, Hans Otto Theatre, Potsdam, Germany, 2004, model

photo

(GB)

with regard to their structure, which is very strong. Then there are the very powerful Cubist works in Kassel or Grevenbroich, the simple, strong forms. In the meantime, a sudden and occasional influence of Mies. Later, in the 1960s, expressiveness makes its appearance. What we find interesting are the drawings that were published. They look like the drawings of the Expressionists from the 1920s. What happened to Expressionism? Today we appreciate people like Alvar Aalto or Barragán, who took the International Style and gave it something national, something from their own tradition. Did you consciously want to connect the International Style with German Expressionism? Was it your goal or just the result of a feeling? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — This is difficult to trace back. Should it have been a German take on Mies? I don’t really think so. The mentioned house in Cologne Weiss was influenced by Mies, but also largely by my family:

Formally, there are many similarities in the exterior of the building, such as the steel structure, but it has a completely different emotional focus. It has nothing of that cool elegance. The materials did not include onyx but terracotta bricks. In fact, everything was defined by life as he imagined it, but the architectural stringency of the layout was determined by rationality.Oris — You’ve already mentioned your father, Dominikus Böhm. To what extent was your architectural work influenced by that link with tradition? It was something personal, which your sons then inherited from you. The Austrian theorist of architecture Günther Feuerstein, who was very influential in the 1970s, once said: ‘Gottfried Böhm has inherited much of the spirit of his father.’ Was he really such a forming influence on you? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — I hope so and I am glad that there is such an impression. My father made contact with Hänselmann and always supported my professional plans. Actually, he wanted me to become his architectural heir, of course, so he told me to complement my studies at the Academy with the courses at the Technical University in order to learn more about architecture.Oris — Your family has four generations of architects now, just like in the old times, when family secrets were transmitted from father to son. Today we have state schools, everyone knows everything, but surely, some personal, intimate experiences are passed within the family. Is there something like that? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — On the one hand, my father was a monumental person. On the other, he was very warm, you could see this warmth in his works. Even as a child, I followed the architectural work of my father with much interest. And he made me participate very intensely in his thought processes. The spaces he created promote life, there is always something motivating outside and inside. I can only hope that I have something similar inside me. I believe that I impart these values to my sons in a similar way. ¶ Peter Böhm — I see that emotional character too. But isn’t it necessary to examine what the building expresses and what it is intended to express? It is not always just about the formal aspect, but also about the intention to express one’s own understanding of the world, which was contained in the Expressionism of my grandfather.Oris — It seems that you find the emotional component very important in the experience of architecture. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Yes. I certainly appreciate the emotional component in the experience of architecture.Oris — When we look at your first buildings, the churches from the 1950s, we see them as experiments, especially

Gottfried Böhm, War sculpture, around 1940

Gottfried Böhm, pianist Erdmann sculpture,

concrete, around 1940

(GB)

Gottfried Böhm, Intervjuoris, broj 70, godina 2011

Gottfried Böhm sa studentima

Gottfried Böhm, Kazalište Hans Otto, Potsdam, Njemačka,

2004., fotografija makete

stambene kuće u Kölnu Weiß, ali tu su također vidljive i razlike. Formalno ta kuća izvana ima mnogo sličnosti, primjerice čeličnu konstrukciju, ali u emocionalnom smislu ima posve drugačije težište. Uopće ne posjeduje onu hladnu eleganciju. Od materijala nije upotrijebljen, primjerice, oniks već opeka od terakote. Sve je zapravo odredio život kako ga je on zamišljao, ali arhitektonsku strogost tlocrta odredila je racionalnost.Oris — Već ste spomenuli svojeg oca Dominikusa Böhma pa nas zanima u kojoj mjeri mislite da je za vaš arhitektonski rad bila važna ta povezanost s tradicijom, koja se kod vas odvijala na osobnoj razini, a vi ste to onda prenijeli i na svoje sinove? Austrijski teoretičar arhitekture Günther Feuerstein, koji je 70­tih godina bio vrlo važan, izrazio je to sljedećim riječima: ‘Gottfried Böhm naslijedio je mnogo od duha svog oca’. Je li vas to zaista tako formiralo? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Nadam se da je tako i vrlo je lijepo da postoji taj dojam. Moj je otac uspostavio kontakt s Hänselmannom i uopće je veoma podrža vao moje profesionalne nakane. Svakako da je želio da postanem njegovim nasljednikom u arhitekturi te mi je preporučio da usporedo s Akademijom posjećujem i Tehničko sveučilište kako bih više saznao o njoj.Oris — Sada je već četvrta generacija arhitekata u vašoj obitelji, kao u stara vremena kada su se obiteljske tajne prenosile s generacije na generaciju. Danas imamo javne škole pa je obrazovanje svima dostupno, ali zacijelo postoje u obitelji osobna, intimna iskustva i spoznaje koje se prenose s koljena na koljeno. Postoji li to i u vašoj obitelji? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Moj je otac s jedne strane bio vrlo monumentalan čovjek, ali s druge strane vrlo srdačan i ta toplina je vidljiva i u njegovim djelima. Već kao dijete sam s mnogo zanimanja pratio arhitektonsko djelovanje svojeg oca, a i on je mene vrlo intenzivno uključivao u svoja razmišljanja. Prostori koje je stvarao, daju životu poticaje; izvana i iznutra postoji uvijek nešto poticajno. Mogu se samo nadati da i u meni ima tako nečega. Vjerujem da i ja na sličan način prenosim te vrijednosti na svoje sinove. ¶ Peter Böhm — Također vidim taj emocionalni karakter, no nije li također potrebno preispitati što zgrada izražava odnosno što se želi njome izraziti? Nije uvijek riječ samo o formalnom vidu, već i o namjeri da se izrazi vlastito razumijevanje svijeta, a to je nosio u sebi ekspresionizam mojeg djeda.Oris — Izgleda da vam je jako važna emocionalna komponenta u doživljaju arhitekture. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Da, veoma cijenim emocionalnu komponentu u doživljaju arhitekture.Oris — Promatramo li vaše prve zgrade, crkve iz 50­tih godina, vidimo ih kao eksperimente, ponajprije u pogledu konstrukcije, koja je vrlo snažna. Zatim su tu vrlo jaka

kiparstvo, ali baci pogled i malo prijeko, na arhitekturu’. Još dugo sam se bavio kiparstvom.Oris — Gdje ste studirali kiparstvo? Recite nam nešto više o vašem odnosu prema skulpturalnosti. Što ste time postigli ili nastojali istražiti? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Studirao sam u Münchenu kod kipara Hänselmanna koji je bio osobito dobar učitelj, ne samo u odnosu na tehniku kojom je vrlo dobro vladao. Dakako da je to utjecalo na moju arhitekturu, barem drugi to tako vide. No i sam smatram da je taj utjecaj bio snažan. ¶ Peter Böhm — Utjecaj Miesove arhitekture na rad mojeg oca je vrlo jasno došao do izražaja kod njegove prve

Dominikus Böhm

Dominikus Böhm

(HS)

Gottfried Böhm, skulptura Rat, oko 1940.

Gottfried Böhm, skulptura pijanista Erdmanna, beton,

oko 1940.

Gottfried Böhm, Interview16 17oris, number 70, year 2011

Oris — From your first work, Madonna in the Ruins (Madonna in den Trümmern) in the devastated Kolumba church in Cologne, till the 1960s, you built some 40 churches. It would be interesting to know how you made the basic decisions, which principles you considered important. Maybe you can tell us about the relation between your work and the work of other significant church builders, such as Rudolf Schwarz, with whom you cooperated for a time. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Yes, I worked for him for some time as a young man. He was the city architect of Cologne and I was glad to work with him. He was a friend of my father, the two of them had already worked together.Oris — Schwarz and your father belonged to the new movement for a new church. They were pioneers of new

the way the children wanted to live there, the things that were important for the family. The Cologne Weiss house was created after my trip to America and shows a great influence by Mies. Yet his influence was humanized by the world view I inherited from my father.Oris — Let us go back to the decision for the expressive form. Was it also a kind of reaction to the architecture of the ‘economic miracle’, which in fact trivialized the International Style? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Could be. ¶ Peter Böhm — You are being so vague now, but it certainly was the case. You were strongly opposed to the kind of functionality as it was interpreted at the time. In fact, you didn’t see the functions of a building as formal processes that should take place in it, as Functionalism did, but you always wanted to express them within the living aspect of the building. In the works of my father, Expressionism is not only a quest for a formal expressive form, but also a quest for content. There is always the wish to introduce a personal understanding of life, and this would also be my answer to the question about what the family shares. From the Kolumba chapel to the most recent projects, it appears again and again, virtually in every project.

church building. The church, that is church architecture, was in a crisis, there had to be a renewal process, it was necessary to go back to the past and start anew in another direction. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Rudolf Schwarz had a big role in that new movement. He was an interesting person in general. However, our contact was not particularly intense. ¶ Peter Böhm — Perhaps it should be pointed out that he was primarily a theorist. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Curiously, his theories were more interesting than what he was building later, in the 1950s. His most interesting building was the Fronleichnam church in Aachen, a great building, but created back in the 1920s.Oris — You further developed the principles of new church building, which were started by your father. Did you transform those ideas? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Yes. It was the time of the Second Vatican Council (1962), so the understanding of liturgy became a little fresher, freer, more open, which was welcomed by us and other architects.Oris — You built churches. Some architects believe there is nothing more important than building churches, since they don’t have everyday functions, and their functions are not as

Gottfried Böhm, St Mary’s parish

church, (Fatima – Friedenskirche), Kassel,

Germany, 1959

(GB)

Gottfried Böhm, St Mary’s parish

church, (Fatima – Friedenskirche),

Kassel, Germany, 1959, drawing

(GB)

Gottfried Böhm, Holocaust memorial, drawing, 2009

Gottfried Böhm, Intervjuoris, broj 70, godina 2011

kubistička djela u Kasselu ili Grevenbroichu, jednostavne snažne forme. Onda odjednom u međuvremenu i poneki utjecaj Miesa. Poslije, 60­tih godina dolaze ekspresivne stvari. Nama su zanimljivi crteži koji su bili publicirani. Podsjećaju na crteže ekspresionista iz 20­tih godina. Što je sada s tim ekspresionizmom? Danas cijenimo ljude kao što su Alvar Aalto ili Barragán, koji su internacionalnom stilu dali nešto nacionalnog, odnosno nešto od vlastite tradicije. Jeste li vi svjesno željeli povezati internacionalni stil s njemačkim ekspresionizmom? Je li to bio vaš cilj ili je to nastalo tek iz izvjesnog osjećaja? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Teško je to slijediti unazad, je li to trebao biti Mies na njemački način, to zapravo ne vjerujem. Kod spomenute kuće u Kölnu Weiß ima Miesovih utjecaja, ali tu je bio i veliki utjecaj moje obitelji: kako žele djeca živjeti u toj kući, što je važno za obitelj... Kuća u Kölnu Weiß nastala je nakon mojeg putovanja u Ameriku pa je stoga zamjetljiv veliki Miesov utjecaj. Ipak taj je utjecaj humaniziran svjetonazorom koji sam naslijedio od svojeg oca.Oris — Da se vratimo odluci za ekspresivnu formu, nije li to također neka vrsta reakcije na arhitekturu ‘gospodarskog čuda’ koja je zapravo banalizirala internacionalni stil? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — To je vjerojatno. ¶ Peter Böhm — Sada to kažeš tako neodređeno, ali to je posve sigurno bilo tako jer ti si se jako opirao tom obliku funkcionalnosti kako je tada bila interpretirana. Funkcije jedne zgrade zaista nisi vidio u smislu formalnih procesa koje se u njoj trebaju odvijati, što je bio slučaj s funkcionalizmom, već uvijek u životnom aspektu zgrade, to si želio izraziti. Ekspresionizam nije u radovima mojeg oca tek traganje za formalnim ekspresivnim oblikom, već i za sadržajem. Uvijek je prisutna želja da se unese osobno razumijevanje života, a to bi bio i moj odgovor na pitanje o obiteljskom zajedništvu. Počevši od kapele Sv. Kolumbe do današnjih projekata, to se uvijek opet pojavljuje, zapravo u svakom projektu.Oris — Od vašeg prvog rada Madona u ruševinama (Madonna in den Trümmern) u razorenoj crkvi Sv. Kolumbe u Kölnu pa do 60­tih godina sagradili ste oko 40 crkvi. Bilo bi zanimljivo saznati kako ste dolazili do osnovnih odluka, koja su vam načela bila važna? Možete li nam reći u kojoj je relaciji bio vaš rad prema radu drugih značajnih graditelja crkvi, poput Rudolfa Schwarza s kojim ste i neko vrijeme surađivali? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Da, kao mladić sam neko vrijeme kod njega radio. Djelovao je tada kao gradski arhitekt Kölna i ja sam vrlo rado s njim radio. On je bio i prijatelj mog oca, njih dvojica su već surađivali.Oris — Schwarz i vaš otac pripadali su već jednom novom pokretu za novu crkvu. Bili su pioniri novoga građenja crkvi.

Gottfried Böhm, župna crkva Sv. Marije (Fatima

– Friedenskirche), Kassel, Njemačka, 1959.

Gottfried Böhm, župna crkva Sv. Marije (Fatima

– Friedenskirche), Kassel, Njemačka, 1959., crtež

Gottfried Böhm, spomenik žrtvama holokausta, crtež, 2009.

Gottfried Böhm, Interview18 19oris, number 70, year 2011

important as the symbolic sacred space. It is always a specific, hard task. Do you feel a special love for church buildings? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Of course, I think that everybody has it, that special love for a good church building, regardless of whether one is a Christian or not. We love to look at beautiful cathedrals. A good church building offers more than a normal building, it exalts.Oris — It is something irrational, but there is also the idea of a community. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Of course, the idea of a community as well.Oris — I mean, church architecture arose from the human awareness of mortality. It expresses the need to bridge time, it fights against time. The most important tasks of architecture are churches, monuments, something that is left after us. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — It was understood in different ways. Rudolf Schwarz did not really want to see it in such a mystical way. The Fronleichnam church expressed the greatness of life in relation to his faith in God. ¶ Peter Böhm — I believe that the process of change is always ongoing. My church is different from my father’s church; changes are going in the direction of something purer and more reduced, the emotional quality of a space also becomes a topic. Space as such has become the function of the church. The possibility of having liturgy inside that space is almost secondary. Of course, it is possible in almost any space. Emotions are the true content. I think that more and more importance is given to what is very quiet and calm. Only the light, only simplicity, the existence of walls, and the contemplation of space – this is prayer, in fact. The simplicity of walls is the symbol of the simplicity of our existence.Oris — The media offer us everything today, suggesting everything by images alone. When something is written, like a novel in which there are no pictures, we ‘see’ what happens anyway. Our experience of a book is more powerful without pictures. But symbols are even more powerful, they are not a language, we need to find the meaning ourselves. So I think that symbols are even more important today. We should think more about the importance of symbols in our world. ¶ Peter Böhm — Under normal circumstances, the need for churches might be explained by the fact of death. Maybe I am just talking about myself and inferring a general meaning, but I believe that traditional symbols are less important than the symbols that we simply feel. A wall exists, that is all. A simple existence that is not cluttered with a variety of amenities.Oris — Another theme of yours, quite topical today, is building in a historic, inherited environment, in a location with a context. When we think of Bensberg City Hall, where

Gottfried Böhm, House Böhm, Cologne, Germany, 1955

Gottfried Böhm, House Böhm, Cologne, Germany, 1955, drawing

Gottfried Böhm, Intervjuoris, broj 70, godina 2011

Crkva odnosno crkvena arhitektura dospjela je u izvjesnu krizu, moralo je doći do procesa obnove, bilo je potrebno vratiti se u prošlost i počinjati iznova u drugom pravcu. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Uloga Rudolfa Schwarza u tom je novom pokretu bila velika. Bio je uopće zanimljiva osoba. Međutim naš kontakt nije bio osobito intenzivan. ¶ Peter Böhm — Bio je prije svega teoretičar, ako to želimo istaknuti. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Začudo je njegova teorija bila zanimljivija od onog što je poslije, 50-tih godina gradio. Njegova najzanimljivija građevina je Fronleichnam crkva u Aachenu, sjajna građevina, no nastala je već 20-tih godina.Oris — Vi ste dalje razvili principe novoga građenja crkvi, ono što je vaš otac započeo. Je li u vašem radu došlo do trans­formacije tih ideja? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Da, a u to vrije me je bio još i 2. vatikanski koncil (1962. godine) pa je shvaćanje liturgije postalo ponešto svježije, slobodnije, otvorenije što je vrlo dobrodošlo nama kao i drugim arhi tektima.Oris — Gradili ste crkve – neki arhitekti misle da je najvažnije sagraditi crkvu, jer funkcije nisu svakodnevne, funkcija nije tako važna, važan je simbolični prostor posvećenosti. To je uvijek specifična, teška zadaća. Imate li posebnu ljubav prema crkvenim zgradama? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Dakako, mislim da to ima svatko, naročitu ljubav za dobru crkvenu građevinu, bez obzira je li netko kršćanin ili nije. Rado gledamo lijepe katedrale, dobra crkvena građevina pruža više od normalne zgrade, ona ushićuje.Oris — To je iracionalnost, ali značajna je i ideja zajedništva. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Dakako, također ideja zajedništva.Oris — Crkvena je arhitektura nastala iz ljudske svijesti o smrtnosti, ona izražava potrebu da se premosti vrijeme, borba je protiv vremena. Najvažnije zadaće arhitekture su – crkva, spomenik, nešto što ostaje iza nas. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — To se shvaćalo na različite načine. Rudolf Schwarz to zapravo nije htio vidjeti na tako mističan način, crkva Fronleichnam izražavala je veličanstvenost života u vezi s njegovom vjerom u Boga. ¶ Peter Böhm — Mislim da je proces promjena uvijek u tijeku, moja se crkva opet razlikuje od očeve, a promjene idu u purističkom pravcu, u smjeru redukcije; emocionalnost prostora također postaje temom. Funkcijom crkve postaje prostor kao takav, mogućnost održavanja liturgije u njemu gotovo je od sekundarnog značenja. Naravno, to je moguće gotovo u svakom prostoru. Emocionalnost je stvarni sadržaj. Mislim da razvoj ide u smislu veće važnosti onoga što je posve tiho i smireno. Samo svjetlost, samo jednostavnost, postojanje zidova, promatranje prostora, to je zapravo molitva. Jednostavnost zidova je simbol jednostavnosti našeg postojanja.

Oris — Danas nam mediji pružaju sve, već nam slike sve su geriraju. Kad je nešto napisano, poput romana u ko jem nema slika, svejedno ‘vidimo’ što se događa, jače do življa­vamo knjigu bez slika. No, simboli su još snažniji, jer oni nisu jezik nego značenje moramo sami pronaći. Stoga mis­lim da bismo trebali više razmišljati o važnosti simbola u na šem svijetu. ¶ Peter Böhm — U normalnom slučaju može potreba za crkvom biti objašnjena činjenicom smrti. Možda govorim o sebi i mislim da to ima općenito značenje, tradicionalna simbolika je manje važna od simbolike koju neposredno osjetimo, spoznajemo. Neki zid naprosto

Gottfried Böhm, kuća Böhm, Köln, Njemačka, 1955.

Gottfried Böhm, kuća Böhm, Köln, Njemačka, 1955., crtež

(MLM)

(gb)

(MLM)

(ib)

Gottfried Böhm, Interview20 21oris, number 70, year 2011

Gottfried Böhm, Bensberg City Hall, Bergisch Gladbach,

Germany, 1962 – 1972, drawing

(GB)

Gottfried Böhm, Bensberg City Hall, Bergisch Gladbach,

Germany, 1962 – 1972

(AR)

Gottfried Böhm, Bensberg City Hall, Bergisch Gladbach, Germany, 1962 – 1972

(PK)

(AR)

Gottfried Böhm, Gradska vijećnica Bensberg, Bergisch Gladbach, Njemačka, 1962.–1972., crteži

Gottfried Böhm, Bensberg City Hall, Bergisch Gladbach, Germany, 1962 – 1972, drawings

(GB)

Gottfried Böhm, Intervjuoris, broj 70, godina 2011

Gottfried Böhm, Gradska vijećnica Bensberg, Bergisch Gladbach,

Njemačka, 1962.–1972., crtež

Gottfried Böhm, Gradska vijećnica Bensberg, Bergisch Gladbach,

Njemačka, 1962.–1972.

Gottfried Böhm, Gradska vijećnica Bensberg, Bergisch Gladbach, Njemačka, 1962.–1972.

Gottfried Böhm, Interview22 23oris, number 70, year 2011

Dominikus Böhm, Church of St John Baptist, Neu

Ulm, Germany, 1926

(KHS)

Dominikus Böhm, competition for the

Friedenskirche church, Frankfurt, 1927, drawing

Dominikus Böhm, St Engelbert’s Church, Cologne, Germany, 1930

Dominikus Böhm, Church of Christ the King, Bischofsheim, Germany, 1926

the old and the new naturally overlap, we can cite William Curtis. He describes the forms of City Hall as ‘neo­medieval’. He understands it as ‘organic romanticism’, he sees the art of crafts and a strongly revalued relationship towards the past. Building in a historical context is as topical today as at any other period. What could you say from experience in that sense? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — It is important that we want to do something together. When we build the new, it must also be comfortable for the old, so to speak. Bensberg was determined to a large extent by my sculptural experience. But you can also notice a big influence of my father.Oris — I think what Curtis wrote was somehow wrong. I do not see that building as either romantic or medieval. I believe that treating concrete as a sculpture was very modern for that period. ¶ Oris — This does not mean that it is not modern, but that there is a relation to the castle located there etc. The main tendency is to establish integrity. ¶ Peter Böhm — It was the intention of Gottfried Böhm, but maybe we should replace the concept of romanticism with the concept of emo-tionality. For me, romanticism really means a reactionary lan gua ge of forms. What is most important, I think, is the intention to find completely new forms. Of course, it is also an effort to fit into the environment in order to find a form that establishes a relationship. I am bothered by the reactionary nature of romanticism.Oris — It is the idea of Romanticism as a period when, for the first time, the individual with his troubles and desires came to the fore. In that sense, it is also modern. ¶ Peter Böhm — Fine, if we understand Romanticism to mean that. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Individuality is certainly something which one always strives for. ¶ Peter Böhm — The individual and the community: this is another aspect that tells us that human life needs to find an expression and living space.Oris — What does time mean to you? What is time and what is the civilization that your architecture and construction must adapt to? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — It must be the relationship towards state-of-the-art materials. The use of concrete was already important to my father, Dominikus Böhm. As a boy, I watched the construction of the vault for his church of St John the Baptist in Ulm: the Rabitz meshes with the plaster base were attached to the steel structure that determined the shape of the vault. As a student, I was interested in the possibilities of suspended concrete iron meshes. I made suspended ceilings that looked like textile textures (Gewebedecken). These were concrete shells stabilized with steel ropes. Then I gradually reached the free structure. Even in my father’s work, I was particularly fascinated by the fact that the ceilings and

(gb)

Gottfried Böhm, Intervjuoris, broj 70, godina 2011

Dominikus Böhm, crkva Sv. Ivana Krstitelja, Neu

Ulm, Njemačka, 1926.

Dominikus Böhm, natječaj za crkvu

Friedenskirche, Frankfurt, 1927, crtež

Dominikus Böhm, crkva Sv. Engelberta, Köln, Njemačka, 1930.

Dominikus Böhm, crkva Krista Kralja, Bischofsheim, Njemačka, 1926.

postoji. Jednostavna egzistencija koja nije pretrpana različitim sadržajima.Oris — Jedna vaša druga tema, danas aktualna, jest građenje u povijesnoj, naslijeđenoj sredini, na lokaciji s kontekstom. Pomišljamo li na gradsku vijećnicu u Bensbergu, gdje se staro i novo posve prirodno preklapaju, citirali bismo Williama Curtisa. On označava forme vijećnice kao ‘neosrednjovjekovne’. To shvaća kao ‘organski romantizam’, tu vidi umjetnost obrta i također snažno revaloriziran odnos prema prošlosti. Građenje u povijesnom kontekstu je vrlo aktualno danas kao i u svako drugo vrijeme. Što biste u tom smislu mogli kazati iz vašeg iskustva? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Važno je da želimo nešto napraviti u zajedništvu. Kad gradimo novo, mora se i staro takoreći tu dobro osjećati. Bensberg je određen u velikoj mjeri i mojim kiparskim iskustvom. Ali zamjetljiv je i dosta veliki utjecaj mojeg oca.Oris — Mislim da je to što je pisao Curtis na neki način pogrešno, tu zgradu ne vidim ni kao romantičnu ni kao srednjovjekovnu. Mislim da je tretiranje betona kao skulpture za to vrijeme bilo vrlo moderno.Oris — To ne znači da nije moderno, već da postoji relacija prema dvorcu koji se tamo nalazi itd. Glavna je tendencija iskaza da je uspostavljena cjelovitost. ¶ Peter Böhm — To je bila namjera Gottfrieda Böhma, možda ako zamijenimo pojam romantizma s pojmom emocionalnosti. Romantika zaista za mene znači reakcionarni jezik formi. Mislim da je najvažnija namjera da se nađu posve nove forme. Dakako, to je i nastojanje uklapanja u okoliš kako bi se pronašla forma koja uspostavlja odnos. Smeta me reakcionarnost romantike.Oris — Misli se na romantizam kao period u kojem su prvi put individuum, odnosno njegove nevolje i želje došle u prvi plan. U tom je smislu to također moderno. ¶ Peter Böhm — Dobro, razumijemo li romantizam na taj način. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Individualnost je zacijelo nešto za čime se uvijek teži. ¶ Peter Böhm — Individua i zajednica – to je opet aspekt koji nam kaže da život ljudi treba naći izraz i životni prostor.Oris — Koje značenje ima za vas vrijeme, što je vrijeme odnosno civilizacija kojoj se svojom arhitekturom, svojim građenjem morate prilagoditi? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Zacijelo je to odnos prema upravo aktualnim materijalima, korištenje betona je već za mojeg oca Dominikusa Böhma bilo važno. Kao dječak sam promatrao kako za njegovu crkvu Sv. Ivana Krstitelja u Ulmu nastaje svod – na čeličnu konstrukciju koja je odredila oblik svoda pričvršćene su Rabitz mreže s nosačem žbuke. Kao student sam se zanimao za mogućnosti ovješenih betoniranih željeznih mreža. Radio sam viseće stropove

(HS)

(HS)

Gottfried Böhm, Interview24 25oris, number 70, year 2011

walls of some churches were a single structure. Then I tried to develop structures that would interconnect walls as load-bearing creations. ¶ Peter Böhm — The Frielingsdorf church by Dominikus Böhm? In that church, the vault reaches the floor. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Yes, but they built with meshes in Frielingsdorf too. Also in Bischofsheim, where the concrete vault actually has the form of a parabola, or take St Engelbert’s; these are massive, splendid buildings. In retrospect, I believe this development had a major role. My sculptural studies were also important: I saw space in three dimensions, as well as outside space and its possibilities.Oris — Did you, as a sculptor, also make clay models as first sketches? Was it so from the beginning or only later? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — It happened in parallel, from a very early time.Oris — In the late 1960s, architectural discourse in Germany and elsewhere started questioning and evaluating the social relevance of architecture. Your work also paid attention to social housing, as shown by the example of the wonderful children’s village of Bensberg, where the domination of expressive, distinctive form was sacrificed to social enga­gement. To some extent, the task was transformed and pro­bably corrected. ¶ Peter Böhm — There is also the question of whether the notion of the expressive can be understood differently. In the children’s village, particular buildings are grouped in a wide circle around the ‘tent’, the chapel. It expresses the idea of living together in the children’s village.Oris — It also expresses the symbolic character of to­getherness. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — It can be understood that way. ¶ Peter Böhm — Perhaps less symbolically, I would say that it is a direct transfer of the idea of living together. The intention is not to symbolize something, but simply to build

a life together. Then it has its own expression, of course, but the translation of a functional idea stands in the foreground. The way of living together in such a children’s village. I say that because the concepts of Expressionism and expressive are so difficult. Something is expressed automatically, but it is not necessarily programmatic, symbolic, it results directly from the function. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — It was truly a special task, to build something like that for poor children, and then it was a real pleasure to see the cheerful children at play. It seems that everything still works very well and is well maintained.Oris — I think that the children’s village goes well with Structuralism, a style that is again very current today. When you worked with concrete, were you interested in Japanese Metabolism? ¶ Peter Böhm — You are thinking about the structures where many identical houses are placed side by side, like the Plug-in-Cities, where containers are piled on top of each other. Only later did the interest arise for such Walking Cities, Peter Cook, Archigram etc. But the children’s village shows simply the idea that identical houses are a result of their function. How to achieve the cohesion, looking for the meaning of the shared and the individual, of individual houses surrounding shared contents. It is not as in Structuralism, where structure is formed first and then filled with content; it is created automatically, and the structures are free forms, which may result from chance. Still, I believe there was the intention not to take formalism too far, but always to include rational elements. Very specific factors that have to be complied with result in identical houses. My father found it very important to bring these intentions and emotional quality to rational direction. This is the case of Neviges, which is nowhere as formalistic as it looks at first glance, but it is very developed. There is a competition project of my grandfather Dominikus Böhm for the Frauenkirche in Frankfurt, a bare space surrounded by numerous chapels.

Gottfried Böhm, crkva Sv. Gertrude, Köln, Njemačka, 1965., crtež

Gottfried Böhm, St Gertrud’s Church, Cologne, Germany, 1965, drawing

Gottfried Böhm, Javna knjižnica, Ulm, Njemačka, 2004., crtež

Gottfried Böhm, public library, Ulm, Germany, 2004, drawing(gb)

Gottfried Böhm, Intervjuoris, broj 70, godina 2011

Oris — To izražava i simbolički karakter zajedništva. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — To se tako može shvatiti. ¶ Peter Böhm — Možda manje simbolički, rekao bih da je riječ o di-rektnom prenošenju predodžbe o zajedničkom životu. Nam-jera nije nešto simbolizirati, želi se naprosto graditi zajednički život. Naravno, to onda ima i svoj izraz, ali u prvom planu stoji prevođenje jedne funkcionalne predodžbe. Kako funkcionira zajednički život u takvom dječjem selu. To kažem jer su poj movi ekspresionizam i ekspresivno tako teški pojmovi. Nešto je automatski izraženo, ali to nije nužno programatski, simbolički, to proizlazi neposredno iz funkcije. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — To je zaista bila naročita zadaća, graditi tako nešto za sirotu djecu, a onda je bio pravi užitak vidjeti veselu djecu u igri. Čini se da još uvijek sve vrlo dobro funkcionira, također je dobro održavano.Oris — Mislim da to dječje selo dobro pristaje uz struk tura­lizam, stil koji je danas opet tako aktualan. Kad ste radili s betonom, je li vas tada zanimao japanski metabolizam? ¶ Peter Böhm — Mislite na strukture kod kojih se uvijek jednake kuće slažu jedna uz drugu, poput Plug­in­Cities, kod kojih se kontejneri slažu jedni na druge? Tek je poslije postojao interes za takve Walking Cities, Petera Cooka, Archigram itd. Međutim kod dječjeg sela je naprosto ideja da iz određene funkcije uvijek proizlaze iste kuće. Kako da se ostvari po ve-zujuće, koje je značenje zajedništva, a koje individualnog, pojedinačne kuće okružuju zajedničke sadržaje. To nije kao u strukturalizmu gdje prvo nastaje struktura, koju se potom ispunjava sadržajima, nego nastaje automatski, a strukture su slobodne forme, koje mogu proizaći i iz slučajnosti. Ipak mislim da je tu namjera da formalizam ne ide predaleko, već da se uvijek unose i racionalni elementi. Posve određeni faktori kojima se treba podrediti uvjetuju jednake kuće. Mojem je ocu jako važno te namjere i emocionalnost usmjeriti u racionalnom smjeru. Tako je to i u crkvi u Nevigesu, koja uopće nije tako formalistička kako izgleda na prvi pogled, vrlo je razvijena.

koji su djelovali poput tekstilnih tekstura (Gewebedecken). Bile su to betonske ljuske stabilizirane čeličnom užadi. Za-tim sam postupno došao do slobodne konstrukcije. Već kod oca me naročito zanimalo kako su u nekim crkvama stro povi i zidovi jedinstvena tvorevina. Pokušao sam onda razviti konstrukcije tako da se zidovi međusobno povezuju kao nosive tvorevine. ¶ Peter Böhm — Misliš na crkvu u Frielingsdorfu Dominikusa Böhma? Tamo svod seže do poda. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Da, ali u Frielingsdorfu su gradili ta-kođer mrežama. Kao i u Bischofsheimu, tamo je betonski svod zapravo u obliku parabole ili također St. Engelbert, to su masivne, sjajne građevine. Retrospektivno mislim da je taj razvoj igrao veliku ulogu. Moj studij kiparstva je također bio važan, vidio sam prostor plastično, također vanjski prostor i kakve su tu mogućnosti.Oris — Jeste li kao skulptor također radili modele od gline, kao prve skice, je li to bilo u početku tako ili tek poslije? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — To se odvijalo paralelno, već vrlo rano.Oris — Krajem 60­tih godina arhitektonski se diskurs, ne samo u Njemačkoj, promijenio u smislu propitiva nja i provjeravanja društvene relevantnosti arhitekture. U vašem se radu isto tako primjećuje obraćanje pozornost na socijalnu stanogradnju, na što ukazuje primjer čudesno­ga dječjeg sela Bensberg. Tu je zapravo dominantnost ekspresivne, izrazite forme žrtvovana socijalnom an gaž­manu. U izvjesnoj mjeri dolazi do transformacije, vje ro­jatno i korekture zadatka. ¶ Peter Böhm — Pitanje je ta-kođer može li se pojam ekspresivnog shvatiti i drugačije. Kod dječjeg sela se također pojedine zgrade grupiraju u veliki krug oko ‘šatora’ – kapele. To izražava predodžbu o zajedničkom životu u dječjem selu.

Gottfried Böhm, Interview26 27oris, number 70, year 2011

Neviges has something similar, but some of the chapels are more significant and larger, while others are less important and smaller. When this ground plan with large and small chapels is covered by a folded structure, it automatically results in a certain basic structure.Oris — In our opinion, that formal aspect of the church in Neviges is much less present in the interior than on the exterior. ¶ Peter Böhm — There is the question of the degree to which the outside of the volume was designed to make the interior look like its negative. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — I think it was the opposite: it develops from the inside to the outside, which is the path and the goal. The Chapel of Grace is slightly off-centre. This is how it was envisioned, starting from the inside, the chapel of the sacraments is the real space… In addition, the terrain was so convenient; the street goes round the building and at the back reaches the church’s upper level. The position was beautiful. ¶ Peter Böhm — My father set up the chapels in accordance with philosophical considerations,

in relation to the size and position. At first, the decisions were related to the layout, the folded structure was developed in parallel. The structure obtained its load-bearing capacity by means of the folds, which developed from the layout.Oris — You have four sons, three of them are architects. Do you still work with them on their projects, your projects? Do they seek your advice? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — They do, thank God. It seems they like to work with me for competitions and the like. After all, I am the cheapest labour. ¶ Peter Böhm — Recently we worked together on a competition pro-ject for a university building in Berlin. When I felt that it was his project, I did not sign it. It was Gottfried Böhm.Oris — Now that you are over 90, when you look back, what project or house would you prefer to talk about? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — If we talk about houses, it would be the mentioned house in Cologne Weiss, which is still very dear to me. Churches are not comparable, they are something else entirely. The church in Neviges is special because of its size, but I personally love the Church of the Resurrection in Melaten.Oris — Why is it so dear to you? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — It is hard to express. Maybe that church radiates a special calm to a greater extent than Neviges, although it is also very

Gottfried Böhm, Crkva hodočašća (Mariendom),

Velbert-Neviges, Njemačka, 1973., crteži

Church of Pilgrimage (Mariendom), Velbert-

Neviges, Germany, 1973, drawings

(GB)

Gottfried Böhm, Crkva hodočašća (Mariendom),

Velbert-Neviges, Njemačka, 1973., crtež

Church of Pilgrimage (Mariendom), Velbert-

Neviges, Germany, 1973, drawing

(GB)

Gottfried Böhm, Crkva hodočašća (Mariendom), Velbert-Neviges, Njemačka, 1973.

Gottfried Böhm, Crkva hodočašća (Mariendom), Velbert-Neviges, Njemačka, 1973.

Church of Pilgrimage (Mariendom), Velbert-Neviges, Germany, 1973

(AR)

Church of Pilgrimage (Mariendom), Velbert-Neviges, Germany, 1973

(AR)

Gottfried Böhm, Intervjuoris, broj 70, godina 2011

Postoji natječajni projekt mojeg djeda Dominikusa Böhma za Frauenkirche u Frankfurtu, goli prostor, a oko njega brojne kapele. U Nevigesu je slično, no neke kapele su važnije i veće, a druge su ne tako važne i manje. Kad se iznad tog tlocrta s velikim i malim kapelama napravi naborana konstrukcija, iz toga automatski proizlazi izvjesna osnovna struktura.Oris — Mislimo da crkva u Nevigesu ima taj formalni element znatno manje izražen u svojoj unutrašnjosti nego izvana. ¶ Peter Böhm — Postavlja se pitanje u kojoj je mjeri kubus promatran izvana bio planiran kako bi se unutarnji prostor mogao zamisliti kao negativ. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Mislim da je obratno, razvija se iz unutrašnjeg prema vanjskom, to je put i cilj. Kapela milosti nalazi se nešto po strani. Tako je zamišljeno polazeći iznutra, kapela sakramenata je stvarni prostor… Pritom je još i teren bio tako pogodan, ulica straga okružuje crkvu, tako da je prilaz s ulice na visini gornje etaže. Situacija je bila vrlo lijepa. ¶ Peter Böhm — Moj je otac postavio kapele u skladu s filozofskim promišljanjima,

Gottfried Böhm, Interview28 29oris, number 70, year 2011

Church of Pilgrimage (Mariendom), Velbert-

Neviges, Germany, 1973

(AR)

Gottfried Böhm, Ota Hall, Ota, Japan, 1991, project, drawing

(gb)

Gottfried Böhm, Intervjuoris, broj 70, godina 2011

Gottfried Böhm, Crkva hodočašća (Mariendom),

Velbert-Neviges, Njemačka, 1973.

Gottfried Böhm, Ota Hall, Ota, Japan, 1991., projekt, crtež

u odnosu na veličinu i poziciju, to su bile ispočetka odluke u smislu tlocrta, a na bo rana konstrukcija razvijala se paralelno. Konstrukcija je ima la nosivost preko nabora, a to se razvija iz tlocrta.Oris — Imate četiri sina, trojica su arhitekti. Postoji li i danas suradnja s njima na njihovim ili na vašim projektima? Traže li vaš savjet? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Hvala bogu traže moj savjet, čini se da rado sa mnom surađuju na natječajima i slično, a ja sam i najjeftinija radna snaga. ¶ Peter Böhm — Nedavno smo zajedno radili jedan natječajni projekt, jednu sveučilišnu zgradu u Berlinu. Kad sam osjetio da je to njegov projekt, nisam ga sam potpisao, bio je to Gottfried Böhm.Oris — Sada vam je više od 90 godina, u retrospektivi, o ko­jem biste projektu, o kojoj kući govorili najradije? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Ako govorite o kući, onda bi to bila spomenuta kuća u Kölnu Weiß, još uvijek mi je vrlo draga. Crkve se ne mogu uspoređivati, nešto su posve drugog. Crkva u Nevigesu je već zbog veličine naročita, ali osobno vrlo volim crkvu Uskrsnuća u Melatenu.Oris — Zašto vam je tako posebno draga? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — To je teško izraziti, možda ta crkva žari posebnom smirenošću više nego Neviges, iako je također vrlo komplicirana. Raduje me da vas crkva u Melatenu posebno zanima. Ona je jedna od mojih posljednjih, ali i najdražih crkvi. No, općenito nije baš poznata.Oris — Možda nešto o radovima drugačijih funkcija. Vi ste već 1985. predložili staklenu kupolu za zgradu Reichstaga u Berlinu, a poslije ju je realizirao Foster. Zašto zapravo vaš rad nije išao dalje? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Ja to također ne znam. ¶ Peter Böhm — U vezi kupole Reichstaga, htio bih reći da uvijek dolazi do istih postupaka i u odnosu na mainstream arhitekturu. Nije to mainstream, to je arhitektura visoke kva-litete, no mislim da je otac tu zauzeo vlastiti stav i zacijelo je došao do izražaja njegov odnos prema funkciji i prema životu. Primjerice, u kupoli je trebala biti plenarna dvorana, a sada je plenum dolje u zgradi dok je kupola tek staklo, tek znak. Za njega je to bilo premalo, što je i simptomatično. Smatrao je da u kupoli mora biti plenarna dvorana kako bi se svim ljudima u gradu pokazalo da tu gore sjede ti koji odlučuju o politici. Demokratsko shvaćanje je povezano s tim kao i sa staklenom ovojnicom. U prvom konceptu je već postojala manje-više staklena kupola, u drugom nacrtu je ta namjera došla još više do izražaja, s otvorenom ljuskom koja spada u njegov novi jezik, koji je razvio za Ota Hall u Tokyju. Za tu je dvoranu razvijena kupola iz ljuski koje se otvaraju. To otvaranje je također simbol demokracije. Ishodišta su potpuno različita nego kod Fosterove kupole. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Mi smo to

Gottfried Böhm, Interview30 31oris, number 70, year 2011

complicated. I am happy that you are particularly interested in the church in Melaten. It is one of my last and my favourite churches. But it is generally not well known.Oris — Now a few words about your works of different functions. It was already in 1985 that you suggested a glass dome for the Reichstag building in Berlin. Later it was realized by Foster. What prevented your work from de ve loping? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — I don’t know either. ¶ Peter Böhm — Regarding the Reichstag dome, let me say that the same procedures are always applied even to mainstream architecture. It is not mainstream, it is high-quality architecture, but I believe that my father took a stand and certainly showed his attitude towards function and life. For example, the dome was supposed to contain the ple-nary hall, but now the plenum takes place down there in the building, while the dome is just glass, only a sign. It was too little for him, which is symptomatic. He believed that the dome had to contain the plenary hall to show everyone in the city that the lawmakers were sitting up there. Just like the glass shell, it is related to the democratic outlook. The first concept already included a glass dome, more or less, while the second draft made that intention more prominent, with an open shell, which belonged to the new language that he developed for the Ota Hall in Tokyo. For that hall, he developed a dome of opening shells. That opening was also a symbol of democracy. The starting points are completely different from Foster’s dome. ¶ Gottfried Böhm — We designed it

Peter Böhm, crkva Sv. Pia X., Hohenstein,

Njemačka, 1998.

Peter Böhm, St Pius X’s Church,

Hohenstein, Germany, 1998

(LR)

Peter Böhm, St Pius X’s Church, Hohenstein, Germany, 1998

(LR)

Gottfried Böhm, Intervjuoris, broj 70, godina 2011

zajednički planirali… ¶ Peter Böhm — Bila je to tvoja kupola. Nastala je diskusija oko toga ima li danas, u demokraciji, pot-rebe za takvim simbolom kao što je kupola, za simbolom moći. Njegov je stav bio posve odlučan – upravo u demokraciji tre-ba izraziti senzibilnost u smislu transparentnosti, ništa se ne smije sakriti. U diskusiji to nije naišlo na razumijevanje. Rezultat natječaja koji je uslijedio bio je – bez kupole. Od 150, 200 predanih radova bila su samo tri s kupolom. To je funkcionalna, idejna pozadina. Mislim također da ne treba iz ljudske duše jednostavno iščupati užitak koji u sebi nosi kupola, naprosto je lijepo grad okruniti na taj način. Iz nekih ideoloških pobuda, bojažljivih i ne baš jasnih, odreći se tog užitka nije shvatljivo. To je također jedan aspekt obiteljske tradicije, nadam se da vrijedi i za mene, da srce kao regulativna instanca ima posebno značenje i da nam ne odgovara pretje-rana intelektualnost. To je već bilo tako kada su Rudolf Schwarz i Dominikus Böhm vodili zanimljivi dijalog. Dijalog jednog intelektualca i mojeg djeda.Oris — Prije 25 godina dobili ste Pritzkerovu nagradu, koje je značenje to za vas imalo? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — To je bilo veselje.Oris — Što je to značilo za njemačku arhitekturu? Radost? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Sumnjam da su se svi Nijemci tome veselili, ali brojne kolege su se vrlo radovale, mnogi su smatrali da je to bilo u reduOris — Je li vaš otac još bio živ? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — Ne, ali moja se žena vrlo radovala, imam vrlo simpatičnu ženu,

Peter Böhm, crkva Sv. Pia X., Hohenstein, Njemačka, 1998.

Gottfried Böhm, Interview32 33oris, number 70, year 2011

together... ¶ Peter Böhm — It was your dome. There has been a discussion about whether today, in a democracy, there is a need for such a symbol as a dome, a symbol of power. His attitude was totally committed: it is precisely in a democracy that one has to be sensible about transparency, not hiding anything. It was not understood well in the discussion. The outcome of the following competition did not include a dome. Out of 150 or 200 submitted works, only three had a dome. It was the background of functions and ideas. I also do not believe that the pleasure of a dome should be simply torn out of the human soul, it is beautiful to crown a city in this way. It is not understandable that we should give up this pleasure for some coy and unclear ideological reasons. It is another aspect of our family tradition, which I hope applies to me too: the heart has a special meaning as a means of regulation, we do not like excessive intellectuality. It was already so when Rudolf Schwarz and Dominikus Böhm had an interesting dialogue. A dialogue between an intellectual and my grandfather.Oris — You won the Pritzker Prize 25 years ago. What did it mean to you? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — It was a joy.Oris — What did it mean for the German architecture? Joy? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — I doubt that all Germans celebrated

Gottfried Böhm, Intervjuoris, broj 70, godina 2011

Gottfried Böhm, crkva Kristova uskrsnuća,

Köln, Njemačka, 1970.

Gottfried Böhm, Church of the

Resurrection of Christ, Cologne, Germany,

1970

(AR)

it, but many colleagues were very glad, many felt that it was appropriate.Oris — Was your father still alive? ¶ Gottfried Böhm — No, but my wife was delighted, I have a very nice wife, who is an architect too. Despite our four children, she has always been a companion with a critical attitude. She also did very original small-scale works, renovations, like the house where we live now. We no longer live in the Cologne Weiss house, now I live closer to my office. My wife did a very original job turning an old tram depot into two apartments. Now we live in one of them. She made small interventions in the old rooms to create impressive spaces. The whole house radiates a special spirit. ¶ Peter Böhm — Her work made her the opposition. Maybe it is the wrong word, but her projects were never similar to my father’s. Her starting points were completely different, much more openly romantic.Oris — We liked it when you talked about the spirit. Ro­manticism and the spirit are not necessarily the same.

također arhitekticu. Iako imamo četvero djece, uvijek me kritički pratila, a i sama je vrlo originalno gradila manje stvari, pregradnje, tako i kuću u kojoj sada stanujemo. Ne živimo više u spomenutoj kući u Kölnu Weiß, sada stanujem bliže birou. Tu je moja žena jednu staru remizu vrlo originalno pregradila u dva stana, u jednom stanujemo sada. Postojeće prostorije je malim zahvatima tako promijenila da su nastali impresivni prostori. Sve zrači naročitim duhom, cijela kuća. ¶ Peter Böhm — Ona je sa svojim radovima bila u opoziciji, možda je to pogrešna riječ, ali nikada njeni projekti nisu imali sličnosti s očevim. Njena su polazišta bila posve različita, mnogo izrazitije romantična.Oris — Svidjelo nam se kad ste govorili o duhu; romantika i duh nisu nužno jedno te isto.